Zompist Bboard Again

Which grammar books/ressources would you recommend to learn Japanese for someone that has training as a linguist? Ideally I'm looking for both learning material (audio, reading/writing) and comprehensive descriptive grammars since learning material, especially the conversational approach type, often tends to lack grammatical in depth explanations. Which books/methods would you recommend?

I'm both fluent in English and French.

Also, for those of who are learning or who speak Japanese, what is the most difficult part of Japanese grammar (never mind the writing system, let's focus on the grammar side)? I keep hearing that it is a very difficult language to master, yet from what I have glanced superficially it seems very regular. The syntax is quite different from English, but in no way more exotic than Irish (which I have been learning for years). This is not a difficulty for me. So what is the most complexe part and where should my attention be focused?

Thanks in advance!

Have you read Masayoshi Shibatani's The languages of Japan? It's a good description of the language, plus Ainu, from a linguistic point of view. Not a learning textbook, but it has a lot of info you wouldn't find in a textbook.

Who is telling you that Japanese is difficult? I certainly don't think the grammar itself is. It has a fair number of non-English-like features: a very different pronoun structure; postpositions; SOV; different inflection parameters, pitch accent. But nothing comparable to the swamps of IE inflection. Not many cognates to grab onto, but you could always learn Chinese first.

The writing system is the real chore, though one help is to read manga, since they supply furigana.

Faochán wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 11:36 pmAlso, for those of who are learning or who speak Japanese, what is the most difficult part of Japanese grammar (never mind the writing system, let's focus on the grammar side)? I keep hearing that it is a very difficult language to master, yet from what I have glanced superficially it seems very regular. The syntax is quite different from English, but in no way more exotic than Irish (which I have been learning for years). This is not a difficulty for me. So what is the most complexe part and where should my attention be focused?

Dia dhuit, a chara!

My Japanese learning is somewhat incidental, as I've always been focused more on Korean. The grammar of both languages is extremely similar, though, with many of the same pitfalls. One of these is the SOV order, which I still struggle with sometimes. Longer relative clauses slow my comprehension, but fortunately they don't come up a lot in ordinary conversation. Another is the lack of pronouns--or rather, the different approach to them for someone accustomed to non-pro-drop languages. This also kind of gets into the pragmatics, with the default for communication in Japanese just being in general more indirect than is the case in my native language (although growing up around my mother's petit-bourgeois family with their "guess culture" communication style has helped with that). YMMV with this depending on any number of factors.

But I really think the lexicon is the most difficult aspect. As Mark said, there aren't many cognates apart from recent borrowings from English and these often undergo unexpected shifts of meaning. Learning Korean and Chinese first has certainly lessened the burden for me but that's an unreasonable ask for someone interested first and foremost in Japanese.

Guím gach rath ort! Go n-éirí an staidéar leat!

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:10 amThe grammar of both languages is extremely similar, though, with many of the same pitfalls. One of these is the SOV order, which I still struggle with sometimes.

Oddly enough, I don't find SOV all that difficult. What would probably give me problems, if I would try to learn a language that has it, would be initial V or initial O, and especially any form of O before S.

(although growing up around my mother's petit-bourgeois family with their "guess culture" communication style has helped with that).

Fascinating piece. Not sure if that kind of thing is always uniform within families, though. I've got the impression that I myself am a Ask Culture person, while some people in my close family are Guess Culture people. I find it immensely irritating when people ask me questions that they mean, or seem to mean, as requests or assertions, rather than as actual questions.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:03 pm Oddly enough, I don't find SOV all that difficult. What would probably give me problems, if I would try to learn a language that has it, would be initial V or initial O, and especially any form of O before S.

German makes good use of SOV order, though, so maybe it's not that odd

(although growing up around my mother's petit-bourgeois family with their "guess culture" communication style has helped with that).

Fascinating piece. Not sure if that kind of thing is always uniform within families, though. I've got the impression that I myself am a Ask Culture person, while some people in my close family are Guess Culture people. I find it immensely irritating when people ask me questions that they mean, or seem to mean, as requests or assertions, rather than as actual questions.
[/quote]
I'm definitely an Ask person. The OP in the metafilter thread really confuses me! But my parents are more like Guess people. I'm note sure how it works, because that experience (different styles within a family) doesn't seem uncommon. Is it culture? Personality? Culture change? (The latter seems likely. My parents grew up in the '50s and things were certainly more formal then.)

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:03 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:10 amThe grammar of both languages is extremely similar, though, with many of the same pitfalls. One of these is the SOV order, which I still struggle with sometimes.

Oddly enough, I don't find SOV all that difficult. What would probably give me problems, if I would try to learn a language that has it, would be initial V or initial O, and especially any form of O before S.

That's interesting to me considering that OVS isn't terribly unusual for German. I'm also well-acquainted with it due to fronting in English and Romance languagues.

I've learned two VSO languages and found that this aspect of the word order caused me minimal trouble. Practically speaking, what is the difference between "Cheap mé go raibh sí pósta" and "Pensé que estaba casada"? In both case the indication of the subject follows the main verb, being expressed either as a personal pronoun (mé, sí)[*] or as an inflectional ending (-é, -aba/-a).

Raphael wrote:Fascinating piece. Not sure if that kind of thing is always uniform within families, though.

I don't think the author is saying that, but one does tend to dominate. Dealing with my mother meant learning to navigate "guess" culture, even if you were one of my siblings who was neurodivergent, and after my parents split, she was the head of the household.

[*] In some varieties of Irish, synthetic forms are used much more frequently, viz. Munster Irish cheapas "I thought".

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:44 pm That's interesting to me considering that OVS isn't terribly unusual for German.

??

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:03 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:44 pm That's interesting to me considering that OVS isn't terribly unusual for German.

??

German is typically analyzed as SOV in "underlying" order, V2 in "surface" order; fronting is also possible, which in combination with the V2 rule leads to surface OVS order in clauses where the object is fronted and the main verb is finite.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:03 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:44 pm That's interesting to me considering that OVS isn't terribly unusual for German.

??

You get OVS by simple fronting: Das Buch hier mag ich, das andere mag ich nicht.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:04 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:03 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:44 pm That's interesting to me considering that OVS isn't terribly unusual for German.

??

You get OVS by simple fronting: Das Buch hier mag ich, das andere mag ich nicht.

Ah, that explains it! Thank you!

Faochán wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 11:36 pmAlso, for those of who are learning or who speak Japanese, what is the most difficult part of Japanese grammar (never mind the writing system, let's focus on the grammar side)?

For me the most difficult part in the grammar has been that there are so many like "small pieces of grammar", like ways of phrasing things, that have very specific meanings. And they are hard to memorize because they don't crop up that often.

Estav wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:27 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:03 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:44 pm That's interesting to me considering that OVS isn't terribly unusual for German.

??

German is typically analyzed as SOV in "underlying" order, V2 in "surface" order; fronting is also possible, which in combination with the V2 rule leads to surface OVS order in clauses where the object is fronted and the main verb is finite.

Ehh! That's a Generative idea; not all linguists believe there is epistemic evidence for this structure.

vegfarandi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:17 pm

German is typically analyzed as SOV in "underlying" order, V2 in "surface" order; fronting is also possible, which in combination with the V2 rule leads to surface OVS order in clauses where the object is fronted and the main verb is finite.

Ehh! That's a Generative idea; not all linguists believe there is epistemic evidence for this structure.

To be precise, the "underlying SOV" is the theory-specific part; if your theoretical framework doesn't distinguish between surface and underlying structures*), then you can analyze German as simply V2 in declarative main clauses.
*) Which would be my approach; while it makes sense to work with concepts like default and marked word orders, I don't believe in "underlying structures".

The problem with underlying structures is that it is too easy to posit that all languages are essentially English.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:17 pm The problem with underlying structures is that it is too easy to posit that all languages are essentially English.

That's a good one, and basically what I have been thinking of the whole generativist business for long.