Zompist Bboard Again

I know several people on this board know a lot about the development of IE languages in general and English in particular.

I know relatively (SWIDT) little about the development of relative pronouns in OE. From what I understand, the practice of using interrogatives as relative pronouns is a Modern English practice that wasn't present in OE; OE instead used demonstratives. Assuming that I am right about this:

• What prompted this development? After all, it's not as though OE was lacking in relative pronouns.
• Was it some kind of regional effect (since it appears that other SAE languages have undergone something of a similar development)?
• Could OE relativise possessives? (I saw the man whose boat I borrowed?) If it couldn't, I suppose I could understand how wh-words might be roped into service on that front.

Well, the primary distinction between who and that is one of animacy; previously, that was used in both cases. Going back to Old English, þæt was neuter and non-neuter animates would have taken another form (such as sē, sēo, or þone) but the collapse of forms and the resorting of them into definite articles vs demonstratives put and end to this. So while this may not have initiated the shift, I can see how it would drive adoption of it (especially in tandem with an overarching shift to natural gender).

The thin edge of the wedge seems to be clauses with the generalising pronoun who, which originally required a correlating relative (e.g. "Hwa þe heom þises bereafie God ælmihtig sie heom wrað"). At some point, the correlative became optional, which seems to open the door to who serving as a relative pronoun all on its own.

Aha! Putting it like this makes sense. Now I think I need to look at other IE languages a bit more. Are there any others that made the shift from that to who? I feel like there must be (someone once said somewhere that interrogatives as relatives was an IE "trademark" IIRC) but I can't immediately think of any examples. As far as I know the English shift to a three-pronoun natural gender system is rather unusual in IE terms.

I sort of assumed this was due to French influence, but I'm not that sure about that.

Most French relative pronouns are related to interrogatives. (qui, que are identical to the interrogative though usage differs; où is both interrogative and relative; dont is unrelated...). This dates back to Latin (where the stem is qu-/cu- for interrogative and relative with subtly different inflections in each case.

Using reflexes of *kʷ- as relative pronouns often shows up in IE but as usual each branch kind of did its own thing.

So Haleza Grise wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:55 pm Are there any others that made the shift from that to who?

Modern Greek switched to που (as an interrogative: 'where?') but it's an invariable relativizer.

My understanding is that PIE didn't have a dedicated relative pronoun and didn't have a fully grammaticalised system of relative sentences, but instead used participles (think rather "I saw a not-being-there man" than "I saw a man that wasn't there") and maybe a construction still seen in Hittite, using an interrogative pronoun with the relativised element in the "relative" clause and then frequently repeating it in the main clause ("which man wasn't there, I saw (the man)"). Tocharian, Latin, Balto-Slavic use interogative pronouns or attributive variants / derivations of them as relative pronouns, probably as a further development of something like the Hittite construction.
Graeco-Aryan plus Slavic (again, probably under Iranian influence) and IIRC Celtic innovated the pronoun *yo- or extensions of it as relative pronoun, while the oldest stages of Germanic used forms derived from demonstrative and personal pronouns.
As Germanic and Modern Greek show, turning interrogative pronouns into relative pronouns is a productive path; something similar happens in colloquial Russian, where the relative pronoun kotoryj (itself derived from the PIE interrogative pronoun, < *ku-toro-) can be replaced by the interrogative pronoun: ya uvidel cheloveka, kotorogo netu (Literary Standard) > ya uvidel cheloveka, kogo netu (Colloquial).

hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:32 am My understanding is that PIE didn't have a dedicated relative pronoun and didn't have a fully grammaticalised system of relative sentences, but instead used participles (think rather "I saw a not-being-there man" than "I saw a man that wasn't there") and maybe a construction still seen in Hittite, using an interrogative pronoun with the relativised element in the "relative" clause and then frequently repeating it in the main clause ("which man wasn't there, I saw (the man)").

Eurasian SOV languages tend to use participles here, and PIE of course was a Eurasian SOV language. But the Hittite construction is probably quite ancient, AFAIK there are similar constructions in other ancient IE languages.

Tocharian, Latin, Balto-Slavic use interogative pronouns or attributive variants / derivations of them as relative pronouns, probably as a further development of something like the Hittite construction.
Graeco-Aryan plus Slavic (again, probably under Iranian influence) and IIRC Celtic innovated the pronoun *yo- or extensions of it as relative pronoun, while the oldest stages of Germanic used forms derived from demonstrative and personal pronouns.

The pronoun *yo- IMHO may be related to the *-yo which is suffixed to the thematic genitive singular in many non-Anatolian IE languages, and may once have been an attributive marker added to clauses and noun phrases functioning as an attribute to a noun phrase.

As Germanic and Modern Greek show, turning interrogative pronouns into relative pronouns is a productive path; something similar happens in colloquial Russian, where the relative pronoun kotoryj (itself derived from the PIE interrogative pronoun, < *ku-toro-) can be replaced by the interrogative pronoun: ya uvidel cheloveka, kotorogo netu (Literary Standard) > ya uvidel cheloveka, kogo netu (Colloquial).

Yep.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:18 amModern Greek switched to που (as an interrogative: 'where?') but it's an invariable relativizer.

Interesting parallel to Alemmanic wu (< MHG wā(r)).

Test (This post can be deleted - I had problems posting)

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:38 am Eurasian SOV languages tend to use participles here, and PIE of course was a Eurasian SOV language.

Exactly.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:38 am The pronoun *yo- IMHO may be related to the *-yo which is suffixed to the thematic genitive singular in many non-Anatolian IE languages, and may once have been an attributive marker added to clauses and noun phrases functioning as an attribute to a noun phrase.

Yes. That use is still visible in the so-called definite adjectives in Balto-Slavic, and it also seems to be attested in Gaulish.

By the way, while fact-checking my post above, I found this nice overview article over the use of interrogatives as relative pronouns in IE languages. Needless to say, of the scenarios the author discusses, I prefer the one where the use of interrogative pronouns in Anatolian, Tocharian, and Balto-Slavic is a rentention, even if that is not her favoured scenario; I don't have time to discuss the reasons now, but maybe can come back to that later, if anyone is interested.

Nice resource, thanks!

Yesterday, Laudator Temporis Acti posted some cases of the repetition of the relative antecedent in Latin texts; my interpretation would be that this is an archaism, reminiscent of similar cases in Hittite I linked to in my post from June, 21st.; NB that Latin is one of the languages that uses interrogative pronouns as relative pronouns.