Zompist Bboard Again

I know this risks becoming a pretty heated topic, but I'm simply too curious what people think about the question at hand.

Warning: discussion of offensive racist slurs.

About, I think, 15 or 20 years ago, or perhaps a bit earlier - I'm not sure, some young people in Germany started to take the N-word - specifically, the version that ends with "-ah" or "-a" - and changed the "N-" at the start to "D-", and then started using it among each other. I guess the original motivation was that young people who weren't Black - either white or Middle Eastern - wanted to talk like gangsta rappers without inviting trouble from passing Black people who might overhear them.

If that was the original plan, I don't know if it ever worked. I do know that, years ago, I was sitting on a bus and overheard a conversation between a few young Black men who were sitting nearby. One of them used the word, in the version starting with "D-". Another one responded that since they were actually Black, they might as well use the version starting with "N-".

This year, the "D-" version got in the news when it got on a top ten list of "Youth Words of the Year". I was a bit surprised about that, since I guess the people who were young when young people first started using the word are closer to middle age now. But the contest in question limits the franchise to 10-20 year olds, so I guess the voters knew what they were talking about.

Anyway, I myself am very sceptical about the idea that an extremely offensive bigoted slur stops being offensive if you change just one letter in it. As you might have guessed from the fact that in this post, I describe the word instead of spelling it out.

So, any ideas?

About, I think, 15 or 20 years ago, or perhaps a bit earlier - I'm not sure, some young people in Germany started to take the N-word - specifically, the version that ends with "-ah" or "-a" - and changed the "N-" at the start to "D-", and then started using it among each other. I guess the original motivation was that young people who weren't Black - either white or Middle Eastern - wanted to talk like gangsta rappers without inviting trouble from passing Black people who might overhear them.

If i heard it in a song, i'd think it would refer to actual digging. I just use "person/people" if i'm ever reciting these songs or get silent for a second. I do think it's shitty to go ham with saying the n-word on any slight justification. I should note that i don't know what the German equivalent of the n-word is, assuming there is one; but i imagine the ESL factor is important. It's not like here in the States where you really have to live under a rock to not know or not have it feel surprizing to you. Also, there are non-Black POC called the n-word. They're not the first targets, but still.

Anyway, I myself am very sceptical about the idea that an extremely offensive bigoted slur stops being offensive if you change just one letter in it. As you might have guessed from the fact that in this post, I describe the word instead of spelling it out.

That really is for people primarily affected by the slur to decide, so i cannot make a direct claim. There will always be disagreement on some level, and i wish i knew how to get a grip in spite of that.

Oppression axes are not perfectly comparable, so i dunno how useful this will be, but i just want to illustrate a conundrum i see when slurs do affect me. Matter of fact, when i first saw this post, i thought you meant "dike" vs. "dyke". My stances are not universal, but i will say i'm not by myself, either:

I don't mind much being called queerphobic slurs. In fact, i specifically prescribe people use "queer" not "LGBTQ+" or some other acronym. It comes down to calling people what they want to be called (provided it doesn't malign anyone else), and perceiving us unsurprizing/ with depth. Not "the exact same as cishets", but nothing that would be remarkable in a better world. What discouraging slurs taught me, was just how many people consider it more important than actually viewing us with dignity or fighting for us. It feels like they're just appeasing; viewing their inchgiving as a luxurious favor not something we are owed. There's few changes about how they say terms, or what they do in tandem; like they're caring more about social fluency than actual justice.

I don't simply want non-queers to care about slurs, but to actively make some effort to wreck what holds us back. Keeping mindful of how one refers to oppressed groups is part of it, sure, but not all of it nor the most important thing. Much of the verbal cruelty would simmer down with further guides: to get why anyone would take offense to slurs or why once-innocuous words or phrases would become them, and why some of us are indifferent/ would prescribe different-yet-valid solutions. Oh, and if any "solutions" just invent a new problem. Little of this requires lengthy or complicated explanation to a willing listener, despite what academia would have you believe.

Mere slur correction ultimately leads to the euphemism treadmill, because everyone picks up on an exalted term without changing much of their attitude. New term's invented, most don't get what else to change, rinse and repeat. Look at how people a decade ago used "gay" to mean "weak, abhorrent", despite it being the "proper" term. People will tell you otherwise, but i do think this is a textbook case. The euphemism treadmill is also why i'm antipathetic to whiners who want all media bigots appropriate to be conceded to them. Never make a stand, never take it from them. Just mope and pray we can invent something new or they get tired of it.

I am individually not worried about my slurs because i don't want the solution to be "throw some terms away forever" or "view oppression as something to mitigate, not remove; because an ideal society stopped the minute oppression occurred", and i've gotten dispirited about that developing. My distaste for prescriptivism manifests in ways distinct from others's. I figure if i can take the slurs, i might as well do so (not to shame those who can't). Oh, and i am tormented with "correct" terms more often and always have been.

Nota bene: it's your funeral if you use a slur to somebody who doesn't want to hear it. Do not take me as prescribing much besides "queer", or somebody else not caring about their slurs. Some slurs are just blunt insults that have their oppression come from a narrowed target; other terms i hate hearing/using for serious reasons that don't align with sluriness. Again, the situation about race/nation/etc. could be different, my essay's just for perspective.

The term was not introduced as a substitute. It was in use in Hamburg long ago IINM and it's just a term of endearment meaning 'fat one'. Of course it could be that it gaining wider use is connected to hip hop slang or something similar.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:21 pm The term was not introduced as a substitute. It was in use in Hamburg long ago IINM and it's just a term of endearment meaning 'fat one'. Of course it could be that it gaining wider use is connected to hip hop slang or something similar.

Oh, so my assumptions about the word's origins are completely wrong? Interesting. I still wonder if rap slang influenced the spread and exact pronunciation of the word.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 11:42 amI should note that i don't know what the German equivalent of the n-word is, assuming there is one; but i imagine the ESL factor is important. It's not like here in the States where you really have to live under a rock to not know or not have it feel surprizing to you.

I don't think the ESL factor is any excuse these days. People usually are perfectly aware of the meaning and implications of the word. As for German equivalents, I'd say the N-word itself has been taken over as a loanword by the most openly racist people. There's an older German word that's basically the German equivalent of the "second most offensive one" of the two N-words, with mostly similar implications.

Matter of fact, when i first saw this post, i thought you meant "dike" vs. "dyke".

I kind of expected someone to say something like that.

What discouraging slurs taught me, was just how many people consider it more important than actually viewing us with dignity or fighting for us. It feels like they're just appeasing; viewing their inchgiving as a luxurious favor not something we are owed. There's few changes about how they say terms, or what they do in tandem; like they're caring more about social fluency than actual justice.

I don't simply want non-queers to care about slurs, but to actively make some effort to wreck what holds us back. Keeping mindful of how one refers to oppressed groups is part of it, sure, but not all of it nor the most important thing.

Of course. But not every conversation is about the most important thing in the world, and not every thread is about everything.

Much of the verbal cruelty would simmer down with further guides: to get why anyone would take offense to slurs or why once-innocuous words or phrases would become them, and why some of us are indifferent/ would prescribe different-yet-valid solutions. Oh, and if any "solutions" just invent a new problem. Little of this requires lengthy or complicated explanation to a willing listener, despite what academia would have you believe.

Mere slur correction ultimately leads to the euphemism treadmill, because everyone picks up on an exalted term without changing much of their attitude. New term's invented, most don't get what else to change, rinse and repeat. Look at how people a decade ago used "gay" to mean "weak, abhorrent", despite it being the "proper" term. People will tell you otherwise, but i do think this is a textbook case. The euphemism treadmill is also why i'm antipathetic to whiners who want all media bigots appropriate to be conceded to them. Never make a stand, never take it from them. Just mope and pray we can invent something new or they get tired of it.

I am individually not worried about my slurs because i don't want the solution to be "throw some terms away forever" or "view oppression as something to mitigate, not remove; because an ideal society stopped the minute oppression occurred", and i've gotten dispirited about that developing. My distaste for prescriptivism manifests in ways distinct from others's. I figure if i can take the slurs, i might as well do so (not to shame those who can't). Oh, and i am tormented with "correct" terms more often and always have been.

Nota bene: it's your funeral if you use a slur to somebody who doesn't want to hear it. Do not take me as prescribing much besides "queer", or somebody else not caring about their slurs. Some slurs are just blunt insults that have their oppression come from a narrowed target; other terms i hate hearing/using for serious reasons that don't align with sluriness. Again, the situation about race/nation/etc. could be different, my essay's just for perspective.

That's a lot of food for thought. Thank you.

For the record, i don't think ESL factor ever really justifies saying English slurs. Even if you didn't know, you coulda looked it up. Maybe more forgiveable, but eh. The paragraph about slurs being not the most important thing wasn't meant to be a dig, apologies.

And i thank you for listening to my mini-essay. I wish i had clearer answers for you, but i'm always happy to educate what i do know.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 6:54 amAbout, I think, 15 or 20 years ago, or perhaps a bit earlier - I'm not sure, some young people in Germany started to take the N-word - specifically, the version that ends with "-ah" or "-a" - and changed the "N-" at the start to "D-", and then started using it among each other. I guess the original motivation was that young people who weren't Black - either white or Middle Eastern - wanted to talk like gangsta rappers without inviting trouble from passing Black people who might overhear them.

It's just dicker as in dicker Freund "close friend" (literally "fat friend", but compare the use of the cognate "thick" as in "thick as thieves" to mean exactly the same thing) with voicing of a medial consonant, which is common in informal speech in Hamburg., cf. Alter → Alder. Does its similarity to the N word mean that it is more often used in rap? Perhaps. But that's not the origin of the term, and it's widely used in speech, particularly around Hamburg, with other variants such as Diggi, Dickie. It's not from English and it just means "mate".