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Language change in real time
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:14 pm
by Travis B.
I have discussed the idiosyncrasies of my English to no end here, and from paying attention to my daughter's English I have noticed some differences from what I grew up with:
- She uses central vowels more for /oʊ ʊ u/ as [ɵ̞ ʉ̞ ʉ] across the board in all environments where I have clear allophony between [o̞ ʊ u] and [ɵ̞ ʏ y].
- She often has for /aʊ/ [æɔ~æo] where I have [ɑɔ~ʌo].
- She often has for intervocalic /ð/ [ɾ] where I have [ð].
- She seems to have for /ɑ/ free variation between [a] and [ɑ] where I have [a] except when adjacent to /r w h kw gw/ where I always have [ɑ]. Note that she is not cot-caught merged.
Has anyone else here noticed similar sound change "in real time" in their lects? (Well, properly my daughter does not speak quite the same lect as I do as I grew up in the inner suburbs of Milwaukee while she's growing up in a more outer suburb.)
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:30 pm
by Moose-tache
The /il/ > /Il/ change (e.g. "I fill bad about pilling the skin off electric ills") has gone from redneck coding to almost completely universal in North American English. I can't remember the last American I've met who doesn't do this, and so far not one of them has been aware that they do it.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:33 am
by Travis B.
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:30 pm
The /il/ > /Il/ change (e.g. "I fill bad about pilling the skin off electric ills") has gone from redneck coding to almost completely universal in North American English. I can't remember the last American I've met who doesn't do this, and so far not one of them has been aware that they do it.
Well, I don't have this, but because the phonemes work differently for me, i.e. I have a lax vowel in
feel but I don't merge it with
fill, since the former has [ɪɯ] while the latter has [ɘɯ].
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:24 am
by Estav
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:30 pm
The /il/ > /Il/ change (e.g. "I fill bad about pilling the skin off electric ills") has gone from redneck coding to almost completely universal in North American English. I can't remember the last American I've met who doesn't do this, and so far not one of them has been aware that they do it.
It doesn't happen for me or for other NA speakers that I hear. I don't think of it as 'redneck' either--it's just not something that I've encountered outside of written descriptions of NA variation in pronunciation. It's a big continent I guess.
I think the merger of CURE into FUR /ə˞~ɜ˞/ might not have been complete for my parents or grandparents, but it is for me.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:05 pm
by Travis B.
Estav wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:24 am
I think the merger of CURE into FUR /ə˞~ɜ˞/ might not have been complete for my parents or grandparents, but it is for me.
"CURE" is a bad lexical set to me because it treats /ʊr/ and /jʊr/ as the same when in fact they behave differently for me, and to my knowledge, for many North Americans. (I would call /ʊr/ "TOUR" myself.)
As for /jʊr/ for me it can be either [jʁ̩ˤ] or [juʁˤ] depending on register and stress (in
sure the /j/ is transformed into palatalization, of course, and
lure, while originally having this, for me and very others has merged with /ʊr/ and hence rhymes with
tour).
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:27 pm
by Estav
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:05 pm
Estav wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:24 am
I think the merger of CURE into FUR /ə˞~ɜ˞/ might not have been complete for my parents or grandparents, but it is for me.
"CURE" is a bad lexical set to me because it treats /ʊr/ and /jʊr/ as the same when in fact they behave differently for me, and to my knowledge, for many North Americans. (I would call /ʊr/ "TOUR" myself.)
As for /jʊr/ for me it can be either [jʁ̩ˤ] or [juʁˤ] depending on register and stress (in
sure the /j/ is transformed into palatalization, of course, and
lure, while originally having this, for me and very others has merged with /ʊr/ and hence rhymes with
tour).
For me words spelled with U like
lure,
rural, sure, centurion, endure have the same vowel as
cure (FUR) despite not having [j].
Poor, boor, Moor, tour are in NORTH/FORCE, except I sometimes de-merge them and pronounce them with /uɚ/ instead if I feel like making a distinction.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:02 pm
by Travis B.
Estav wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:27 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:05 pm
Estav wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:24 am
I think the merger of CURE into FUR /ə˞~ɜ˞/ might not have been complete for my parents or grandparents, but it is for me.
"CURE" is a bad lexical set to me because it treats /ʊr/ and /jʊr/ as the same when in fact they behave differently for me, and to my knowledge, for many North Americans. (I would call /ʊr/ "TOUR" myself.)
As for /jʊr/ for me it can be either [jʁ̩ˤ] or [juʁˤ] depending on register and stress (in
sure the /j/ is transformed into palatalization, of course, and
lure, while originally having this, for me and very others has merged with /ʊr/ and hence rhymes with
tour).
For me words spelled with U like
lure,
rural, sure, centurion, endure have the same vowel as
cure (FUR) despite not having [j].
Poor, boor, Moor, tour are in NORTH/FORCE, except I sometimes de-merge them and pronounce them with /uɚ/ instead if I feel like making a distinction.
These aren't consistent for me because
rural always has [ʁ̩ˤ] for me while
centurion may have either [tɕʰʁ̩ˤ] or [tɕʷʰyʁˤ] and
endure may have either [dʁ̩ˤ] or [dʷyʁˤ].
As for NORTH/FORCE, the only words for me that merge what I'd call TOUR with them are
your (when stressed), as [jɔʁˤ], and
moor in the names of the streets
Moorland Rd. and
Moorland Blvd. here in the Milwaukee area, which have [mɔʁˤ].
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:41 pm
by Moose-tache
Estav wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:24 am
It doesn't happen for me...
Nor to me, but we as a breed are nearing extinction. It's been years since I heard someone on American TV pronounce "feel" with [il] instead of [Il].
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:36 pm
by Arzena
I replace /T/ with [f] in clusters with /r/ (ie, the three-free merger) more frequently then I expect. Have heard that this is a sound change found among other speakers of English too.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:37 pm
by Richard W
Arzena wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:36 pm
I replace /T/ with [f] in clusters with /r/ (ie, the
three-free merger) more frequently then I expect. Have heard that this is a sound change found among other speakers of English too.
And apparently with pre-Latin as well, though the fricatives may have been voiced.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:02 pm
by Travis B.
I personally realize test as /tɛst/ [tʰɜs]~[tʰɜsʲtʲ], with the plural /tɛsts/ [tʰɜsʲː], but I noticed today that my daughter pronounces tests as /ˈtɛsəz/ [ˈtʰɜsɘːs], implying that test for her is /tɛs/ [tʰɜs].
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 11:07 pm
by Travis B.
More stuff from my daughter: she very frequently pronounces I don't and I don't know as [ãːːʔ]~[ɑ̃ːːʔ] and [ˈãːːno̞(ː)]~[ˈɑ̃ːːno̞(ː)] respectively, much moreso than I do.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:00 am
by alice
Obstruent consonants: an endangered species?
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:27 am
by Travis B.
alice wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:00 am
Obstruent consonants: an endangered species?
More like alveolar flaps and nasals are an endangered species.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:52 pm
by Richard W
alice wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:00 am
Obstruent consonants: an endangered species?
More like several species. Individual ones may be threatened, but the niche will endure.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:00 am
by Travis B.
I notice the voice of Google Maps on my cell phone pronounces turn with [tɕʰ].
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:40 pm
by axolotl
Weird thing, but I seem to remember the generic exclamation of fear/pain/etc, "aaaaaahhhhh," being consistently pronounced [æ:::] when I was a kid, but being much more often [ɑ:::] now. Or at least closer to it.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:44 pm
by äreo
axolotl wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:40 pm
Weird thing, but I seem to remember the generic exclamation of fear/pain/etc, "aaaaaahhhhh," being consistently pronounced [æ:::] when I was a kid, but being much more often [ɑ:::] now. Or at least closer to it.
I think I remember this too.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:44 am
by Man in Space
äreo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:44 pm
axolotl wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:40 pm
Weird thing, but I seem to remember the generic exclamation of fear/pain/etc, "aaaaaahhhhh," being consistently pronounced [æ:::] when I was a kid, but being much more often [ɑ:::] now. Or at least closer to it.
I think I remember this too.
Notably displayed in
Frasier S4E15, “ Roz's Krantz & Gouldenstein Are Dead”, when Roz is chatting with the cool old lady under her charge near the end of the episode.
Re: Language change in real time
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:50 pm
by Darren
[æːːːːːːː] is what I would term a "Tom and Jerry ahh scream".