Zompist Bboard Again

Quick question: since the unborn can exist first in Išária, then be born to earthly women, is there any element of reincarnation in Caďin paganism? (Or for that matter, elsewhere in Almea?)

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:41 am Quick question: since the unborn can exist first in Išária, then be born to earthly women, is there any element of reincarnation in Caďin paganism? (Or for that matter, elsewhere in Almea?)

Wouldn't that mean that, after dying, someone is reincarnated to be an unborn awaiting their birth?

Reincarnating this thread (so to speak):

keenir wrote: Wouldn't that mean that, after dying, someone is reincarnated to be an unborn awaiting their birth?

I could easily imagine such an idea: that after death, the souls of those who have passed are gathered up again by Išária (perhaps after living through an afterlife existence of some kind) and then sent out into the world to be born again; Išária’s realm could be seen as a place of rest and recovery between lives.

That doesn’t mean that reincarnation has to be part of the picture; the pre-existent souls could exist in (or be created by) Išária, be born into the world, and then pass on from there into the afterlife, without returning to be born again. (There are real-world religions with doctrines of pre-existent souls along similar lines, including (as far as I know) at least some forms of Mormonism.)

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:41 am Quick question: since the unborn can exist first in Išária, then be born to earthly women, is there any element of reincarnation in Caďin paganism? (Or for that matter, elsewhere in Almea?)

Forgot this question... can you refresh my memory where I said that? Couldn't find it via Google.

Reincarnation is definitely part of most Bé religion.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:45 pm

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:41 am Quick question: since the unborn can exist first in Išária, then be born to earthly women, is there any element of reincarnation in Caďin paganism? (Or for that matter, elsewhere in Almea?)

Forgot this question... can you refresh my memory where I said that? Couldn't find it via Google.

Reincarnation is definitely part of most Bé religion.

I forgot what this was triggered by myself, but I think it was this (from the Almeopedia page on Išária):

In some stories, the unborn live in Išária too— e.g. in the Epic of Maranh, Maranh makes love to the goddess Vlerë, who conceives a child to be born from his earthly wife Noctulira, and who will be the ancestor of Koleva. And Koleva is already there, and gives Maranh a résumé of the rise of Caďinas. (Theologians debated whether this was true in general, or only for great figures like Koleva.)

And this from the Caďin religions page:

The tragedy of Maranȟ, set years later. Maranȟ and Aertund win a great victory against the Munkhâshi, but afterward are killed in a cowardly ambush. He is taken to Iscaria and meets the goddess Veharies, who falls in love with him. She conceives a daughter, Aervaďes, who will be the ancestor of Kolleiva. (Veharies does not give birth to the child itself— this is delegated to Noctulira.) This being heaven, Kolleiva is already there, and narrates to him the story of Caďinorian greatness from his time to that of Ervëa.

Ah, right. The idea is that the unborn exist in Išária-- it's not reincarnation. It should probably be taken as poetic license, as it provides a way to throw later history into a story set in mythic time.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:57 pm Ah, right. The idea is that the unborn exist in Išária-- it's not reincarnation. It should probably be taken as poetic license, as it provides a way to throw later history into a story set in mythic time.

I see. I guess my curiosity came from noticing that Kolleiva’s adult soul appears to have been believed to have resided in Išária before his birth (given that he narrated the rise of Caďinas to Maranh). If ‘adult souls’ can become ‘baby living things’ there is only a short hop to an idea of reincarnation.

But maybe there’s an understanding that souls only get one life.

(You’ve implied that the denizens of Išária are kinda living their ideal lives; perhaps all souls, born and unborn, are thought to be existing in the same ideal state? So Išária kinda exists outside of time, which the soul only experiences discretely when it has been born in Almea ‒ but all souls that have ever or ever will exist are living a kind of timeless existence, which however is based on the ideal version of the life they live whenever in time they live it.

This belief could lead to some funky literary tropes, such as writers who imagine visions of or journeys to Išária, cf the Divine Comedy, Milton etc, describing future souls and the ways they are living, perhaps to warn, admonish or inspire those on Almea...)

sasasha wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:54 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:57 pm Ah, right. The idea is that the unborn exist in Išária-- it's not reincarnation. It should probably be taken as poetic license, as it provides a way to throw later history into a story set in mythic time.

I see. I guess my curiosity came from noticing that Kolleiva’s adult soul appears to have been believed to have resided in Išária before his birth (given that he narrated the rise of Caďinas to Maranh). If ‘adult souls’ can become ‘baby living things’ there is only a short hop to an idea of reincarnation.

Kolleiva/Koleva is female.

(You’ve implied that the denizens of Išária are kinda living their ideal lives; perhaps all souls, born and unborn, are thought to be existing in the same ideal state? So Išária kinda exists outside of time, which the soul only experiences discretely when it has been born in Almea ‒ but all souls that have ever or ever will exist are living a kind of timeless existence, which however is based on the ideal version of the life they live whenever in time they live it.

This belief could lead to some funky literary tropes, such as writers who imagine visions of or journeys to Išária, cf the Divine Comedy, Milton etc, describing future souls and the ways they are living, perhaps to warn, admonish or inspire those on Almea...)

I'd rather keep Išária not very defined, mostly because similar religions on earth don't picture the afterlife clearly. "Doctrinal" sources, like the Aďivro, barely mention it.

But poets and playwrights can imagine various things about it; talking to the dead is an ancient trope, after all. Some philosophers might speculate about reincarnation-- it was occasionally posited in Greek thought, but not considered certain.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 3:00 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:54 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:57 pm Ah, right. The idea is that the unborn exist in Išária-- it's not reincarnation. It should probably be taken as poetic license, as it provides a way to throw later history into a story set in mythic time.

I see. I guess my curiosity came from noticing that Kolleiva’s adult soul appears to have been believed to have resided in Išária before his birth (given that he narrated the rise of Caďinas to Maranh). If ‘adult souls’ can become ‘baby living things’ there is only a short hop to an idea of reincarnation.

Kolleiva/Koleva is female.

Oops! Obvs.

(You’ve implied that the denizens of Išária are kinda living their ideal lives; perhaps all souls, born and unborn, are thought to be existing in the same ideal state? So Išária kinda exists outside of time, which the soul only experiences discretely when it has been born in Almea ‒ but all souls that have ever or ever will exist are living a kind of timeless existence, which however is based on the ideal version of the life they live whenever in time they live it.

This belief could lead to some funky literary tropes, such as writers who imagine visions of or journeys to Išária, cf the Divine Comedy, Milton etc, describing future souls and the ways they are living, perhaps to warn, admonish or inspire those on Almea...)

I'd rather keep Išária not very defined, mostly because similar religions on earth don't picture the afterlife clearly. "Doctrinal" sources, like the Aďivro, barely mention it.

But poets and playwrights can imagine various things about it; talking to the dead is an ancient trope, after all. Some philosophers might speculate about reincarnation-- it was occasionally posited in Greek thought, but not considered certain.

That makes total sense, and leaves room for the kind of proliferation of artistic imaginings that proceed from these kinds of doctrinal grey areas.