Zompist Bboard Again

Before I begin, I don't know if there's a correct term for the phenomenon I'm going to describe here, so I went with migration.

Is it me, or is there currently a on-going change in the position of "not" in English sentences? In standard English grammar we all know that "I would not like to go to London" is correct. However, what is traditionally incorrect seems to me to be becoming more common: "I would like to not go..." where "not" seems to be placed closer to the main verb. In some situations this means the do not form is lost: "I do not want to go" / "I want to not go".

I know people have done this to emphasise the "not", e.g. someone angrily shouting "I would like to not come home to chores!", but this seems different to what's happening above, because the word "not" would also be heavily stressed in that particular scenario.

Thoughts?

Shouldn't there be a difference in meaning for at least some verbs? I think this related to a phenomen known as neg-raising.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:11 am Before I begin, I don't know if there's a correct term for the phenomenon I'm going to describe here, so I went with migration.

Is it me, or is there currently a on-going change in the position of "not" in English sentences? In standard English grammar we all know that "I would not like to go to London" is correct. However, what is traditionally incorrect seems to me to be becoming more common: "I would like to not go..." where "not" seems to be placed closer to the main verb. In some situations this means the do not form is lost: "I do not want to go" / "I want to not go".

I know people have done this to emphasise the "not", e.g. someone angrily shouting "I would like to not come home to chores!", but this seems different to what's happening above, because the word "not" would also be heavily stressed in that particular scenario.

Thoughts?

The proscription of so-called 'split infinitives' doesn't require rephrasing "I would like to not go to London" as "I would not like to go to London." You left out the option "I would like not to go to London."

I agree with Creyeditor that your question is related to neg-raising.

I don't share your impression that this is an on-going change.

I have observed the difference between using not to and to not, and to me it is a register difference; while the former is preferred in higher registers, in everyday speech I prefer the latter. Also, there are forms in everyday speech like have to where placing not before to is extremely marked and probably simply ungrammatical.

For those who haven't heard of it before, Neg-Raising or Neg-Hopping refers to the negative moving to the highest verb or auxiliary, as in

I believe Klima has been not mentioned today.
> I believe Klima hasn't been mentioned today.
> I don't believe Klima has been mentioned today.

It has to be unlearned when you're studying Mandarin, where 不 bù sticks closely to what it negates.

Given this, it seems that Jonlang is referring to cases where Neg-Hopping doesn't occur. In particular, he seems to be saying that this is a recent change.

But I may be missing something. It's always been the case that you can say "I would like not to go" or "I would like to not go"; it's just that Neg-Hopping usually applies. The main exception is clarity/emphasis, since Neg-Hopping loses the information about what exactly is being denied.

I suspect that you, Jonlang, may be becoming more pernickety as you gets older, and are thus more aware of the possibility of refraining from "neg hopping".

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:10 am Shouldn't there be a difference in meaning for at least some verbs?

I'd say so – "It's not mandatory to go" vs. "It's mandatory to not go". I reckon there's still a difference between "I do not want to go" / "I want to not go" too; the second is more emphatically against going, while the former could just mean that I have something better to do and wouldn't mind going under other circumstances.

All of these variations sound perfectly normal to me, with none being incorrect or even awkward.

I think there could be some sociolinguistic shifting gently underway behind Jonlang’s observation: it seems to me it’s potentially becoming more common to hear and produce constructions like “I just wanna like... not go” (without particular emphasis on the ‘not’). With familiarity, variations of this utterance e.g. “I want to not go” may carry the pragmatics of the more carefully stated first example by association.

I blame TV. It’s a dramatic device, after all: building us up to think you do want to do something, only to dash us with your nihilism.