Zompist Bboard Again

Quick question ‒ does Caizu (the Karazi language still spoken in Caizura in 3480) survive through the modern era? And... Do you have any notes on it / plans to work it out, one day?

I imagine it’s quite a big task ‒ seeing as it would involve working out Coruo as well.

Just curious, really!

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:57 am Quick question ‒ does Caizu (the Karazi language still spoken in Caizura in 3480) survive through the modern era? And... Do you have any notes on it / plans to work it out, one day?

That's a good question... modernism has a tendency to do what medieval kingdoms could never do: push the nomads out of all agricultural land and make them settle down. There will still be Caizurans in 3678, but probably speaking Verdurian.

But I haven't decided yet.

If I do a modern Karazi language it would probably be one of those in the eastern Barbarian Plain, where they can still maintain their lifestyle (at least as well as, say, the Mongolians do).

I have always wondered whether Caizu is inspired by Czech - it juts into Verdurian-speaking territory in a way very similar to how Czech juts into German-speaking territory in our world.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:18 pm

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:57 am Quick question ‒ does Caizu (the Karazi language still spoken in Caizura in 3480) survive through the modern era? And... Do you have any notes on it / plans to work it out, one day?

That's a good question... modernism has a tendency to do what medieval kingdoms could never do: push the nomads out of all agricultural land and make them settle down. There will still be Caizurans in 3678, but probably speaking Verdurian.

But I haven't decided yet.

If I do a modern Karazi language it would probably be one of those in the eastern Barbarian Plain, where they can still maintain their lifestyle (at least as well as, say, the Mongolians do).

Good points. Still, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility it could go the other way linguistically. I don’t know much about the Czech comparison, though I can see WeepingElf’s point there ‒ but Hungary, which I’ve visited a couple of times, is an example of a once-nomadic nation which has maintained its linguistic independence despite ‘settling down’.

You can go to Hungary, hear a Uralic language, listen to distinctive folk music and see traditional horsemanship and art of a very Hungarian type ‒ but also sit in a Viennese style coffee house enjoying some of Europe’s best cakes between an ornate opera house and some of the fanciest churches I’ve ever seen.

I know, Caizura isn’t Hungary. For one thing, it doesn’t have much in the way of an imperial legacy of its own, (unlike Curiya, which however has already lost its Karazi language by 3480). Also, its political status into the modern era does argue toward Verdurianisation ‒ without risking spoilers.

I could believe it either way ‒ but I certainly could believe, if you did take that path, the region of Caizura doubling down on its ‘Caizuranness’... ‘Hungarianness’ survived Habsburg and Soviet cultural/political incursion, after all.

Anyway, a modern Karazi language would be a fun thing to explore, in whatever way!

FWIW, language loss occurs most readily when the language being lost and the one displacing it are related to each other, making it easier for its speakers to make the switch.

For example, Latin wiped out the other Italic and continental Celtic languages, but left Basque and the Afro-Asiatic languages of North Africa more or less unscathed. But those Afro-Asiatic languages in turn were partially (Berber) or wholly (Egyptian) wiped out by Arabic, which also drove other Semitic languages such as Aramaic into extinction except among non-Muslims, but Arabic didn't replace the Indo-Iranian languages like Persian.

Based on this, I'd expect Caizuran to hold on better than the other Central languages in the Plain.

I feel like that's logic you can follow all the way over a cliff; Latin supplanted Faliscan, Oscan, Umbrian etc. to which it's related, sure, but it also supplanted Etruscan and North Picene to which it's not related at all, and I have a hard time believing Oscan is so much more closely related to Latin that it made a difference. It also supplanted the continental Celtic languages for a very different reason (murder bordering on genocide) to the reason it supplanted the other Italic languages (the speakers all gained Roman citizenship after the Social War, so it became very politically useful for their elites to be able to speak Latin so they could enter Roman political life) or the reason it didn't supplant Basque (mountains).

BGMan wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 7:46 pm FWIW, language loss occurs most readily when the language being lost and the one displacing it are related to each other, making it easier for its speakers to make the switch.

For example, Latin wiped out the other Italic and continental Celtic languages, but left Basque and the Afro-Asiatic languages of North Africa more or less unscathed. But those Afro-Asiatic languages in turn were partially (Berber) or wholly (Egyptian) wiped out by Arabic, which also drove other Semitic languages such as Aramaic into extinction except among non-Muslims, but Arabic didn't replace the Indo-Iranian languages like Persian.

Based on this, I'd expect Caizuran to hold on better than the other Central languages in the Plain.

African romance was a thing.

BGMan wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 7:46 pmFor example, Latin wiped out the other Italic and continental Celtic languages,

you mean like Galatian in 1st Century AD Anatolia?

but left Basque and the Afro-Asiatic languages of North Africa more or less unscathed. But those Afro-Asiatic languages in turn were partially (Berber) or wholly (Egyptian) wiped out by Arabic,

the Copts would be shocked to hear that they are speaking a nonexisting language.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:44 am the Copts would be shocked to hear that they are speaking a nonexisting language.

Coptic has not had native-speaker transmission for multiple hundred years now, so while they may technically be speaking it, that statement needs qualification.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 7:59 pm It also supplanted the continental Celtic languages for a very different reason (murder bordering on genocide)

What is your source for this? There was violent conquest, but systematic extermination*)??? All accounts of e.g. Gaulish I've read speak of a survival of the language at least partially into even post-Empire times, and the reason for change being a replacement top-down due to the local (Gaulish!) elites switching to Latin (> Romance) for prestige reasons, with the bulk of the population following that development.
*) That sometimes happend to individual populations of places or tribes where the Romans wanted to state an example, but I'm not aware of a systematic genocide of Celtic-speakers.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:24 am What is your source for this?

This blog post by Bret Devereaux.

Julius Caesar’s Commentaries on the Gallic Wars are essentially campaign logs, written by Caesar (and Aulus Hirtius for the last book) to the folks back home in order to keep up his political support during his nine years in Gaul. While Gaul (modern France) doesn’t seem exotic to us, you want to keep in mind that this was a region of the world the average Roman knew little about, so Caesar feels he has to do a fair bit of ethnography: who are the people who live here, what are they like, and why is Caesar so intent on killing basically all of them (seriously, Caesar’s conquest of Gaul was extremely violent, even by Roman standards).

(The Romans tended to be more ruthless when it came to the north in general; between that, Caesar and their systematic persecution of druidic practice I think "murder bordering on genocide" is a fair summary.)

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:17 pm (The Romans tended to be more ruthless when it came to the north in general; between that, Caesar and their systematic persecution of druidic practice I think "murder bordering on genocide" is a fair summary.)

That's not what I took away from reading BG; as much as I respect Brett Deveraux, "killing them all" was not what Caesar did, and it wouldn't have made sense - the Romans wanted to conquer land and people; while they settled veterans in order to increase control of conquered territories, they generally left the indigenous populace in place. The thing is rather that outside the Hellenist sphere, the "barbarian" peoples, with less centralized states, had a higher ratio of warriors in the population (as a flipside, often armed with worse quality weapons and armor), and being less centralized, couldn't be conquered by just beating a king and his army in a couple of battles; and therefore more people needed to be killed to end resistance. And while the Druids were indeed persecuted, Celtic religion survived and was syncretized with the Graeco-Roman religion. The goal was never to extinguish Celtic peoples, their language and culture, which is what genocide means - the Gaulish aristocracy that cooperated was incorporated into the system of Roman rule, and the peasantry was left in place; the subsequent loss of the Gaulish language and culture was due to the assimilating tendencies over the following centuries, like in the other non-Hellenist parts of the Empire. And what really did it for the non-Roman religions was actually Christianity.

Sol717 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 5:01 am

keenir wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:44 am the Copts would be shocked to hear that they are speaking a nonexisting language.

Coptic has not had native-speaker transmission for multiple hundred years now, so while they may technically be speaking it, that statement needs qualification.

what??

then how did some of the French and English people who used spoken Coptic to help them decipher the Rosetta Stone, learn a language that hasn't been transmitted for many hundreds of years?

if the Copts aren't native speakers, who the frell are?

{also, what do you mean "they may technically be speaking it"??}

keenir wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 1:41 pm

Sol717 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 5:01 am

keenir wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:44 am the Copts would be shocked to hear that they are speaking a nonexisting language.

Coptic has not had native-speaker transmission for multiple hundred years now, so while they may technically be speaking it, that statement needs qualification.

what??

then how did some of the French and English people who used spoken Coptic to help them decipher the Rosetta Stone, learn a language that hasn't been transmitted for many hundreds of years?

if the Copts aren't native speakers, who the frell are?

Are you forgetting what "native speaker" means? It means "from birth"— that is, taught to children and used in the home. Coptic is a liturgical language— exactly as Latin was until the 1960s.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 3:01 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 1:41 pm

Sol717 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 5:01 amCoptic has not had native-speaker transmission for multiple hundred years now, so while they may technically be speaking it, that statement needs qualification.

what??

then how did some of the French and English people who used spoken Coptic to help them decipher the Rosetta Stone, learn a language that hasn't been transmitted for many hundreds of years?

if the Copts aren't native speakers, who the frell are?

Are you forgetting what "native speaker" means? It means "from birth"— that is, taught to children and used in the home. Coptic is a liturgical language— exactly as Latin was until the 1960s.

ah, okay; I had been thinking liturgical languages had native speakers, in the sense of their own population(s) of people growing up hearing and learning and speaking it. (as opposed to Akkadian)

also, I'd never been clear on if Coptic was purely liturgical or not - and comparisons to Latin just reinforced that, as I knew it was a liturgical language, but I also knew that, in most books that were written in Europe had at the very least their titles in Latin.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:38 amand comparisons to Latin just reinforced that, as I knew it was a liturgical language, but I also knew that, in most books that were written in Europe had at the very least their titles in Latin.

But Latin still had to be learned, often together with reading.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:46 am

keenir wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:38 amand comparisons to Latin just reinforced that, as I knew it was a liturgical language, but I also knew that, in most books that were written in Europe had at the very least their titles in Latin.

But Latin still had to be learned, often together with reading.

okay, but thats true of any language that has a written side to it., even Esperanto.

PS: more importantly, I agree that it would be more interesting (than continuing this side discussino) to see more of Caizu and its neighbors.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 3:42 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:46 am

keenir wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:38 amand comparisons to Latin just reinforced that, as I knew it was a liturgical language, but I also knew that, in most books that were written in Europe had at the very least their titles in Latin.

But Latin still had to be learned, often together with reading.

okay, but thats true of any language that has a written side to it., even Esperanto.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 3:42 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:46 am

keenir wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:38 amand comparisons to Latin just reinforced that, as I knew it was a liturgical language, but I also knew that, in most books that were written in Europe had at the very least their titles in Latin.

But Latin still had to be learned, often together with reading.

okay, but thats true of any language that has a written side to it., even Esperanto.

But again, the learning of native languages happens from childhood, without formal instruction, with reading usually being a skill that is picked up later. Latin in medieval times (and after) was taught in formal environments - like with Esperanto or Sanscrit, there may have been exceptional people who raised their children in Latin, but that must have been rare. And those same formal environments then also taught reading and writing.

If Europe had native Latin speakers in the Middle and Early Modern Ages, wouldn't that mean that, by the same logic, I'm a native English speaker?