Zompist Bboard Again

So coming back to an ancient (in my life anyway) fantasy setting, I started to think about how magic might be used in warfare. Now I surmise that about 5 in 1000 people have some talent for magic in this conworld. Out of a population (in the Kingdom of Melland, one of my main settings) of approx 1m that makes about 5000 people at any one time with some magical talent. The difficulty in Melland at least is that there is no organised school or anything where you can go and learn so most such sorcerers end up doing a little of fortune telling/healing/mischief etc, although once in a while someone teaches themselves enough to be a real nuisance, gather an army, stick themselves on the throne etc. Last time that happened the sorcerer's son had no particular talent for magic and the traditional elite promptly deposed him.

But further south the Xularn Empire has a population of maybe 50m, so about 250,000 possible sorcerers. Assume that only a fifth (say) live close enough to a major city to get to a branch of the Xularn Guild of Magic and we have 50,000 possible members of the Guild. Even if only a tenth of those are skilled enough to produce destructive physical effects - fireballs and so forth - that is 5000 possible sorcerers who could be deployed in battle.

I'm wondering how this might work. I don't want to make a cadre of sorcerers too powerful, or a) potentially any force arrayed against them on the battlefield without equivalent sorcerous back-up just gets slaughtered out of hand and b) if the opponent does have such back-up, the "normal" troops seem a bit redundant as it degenerates into a sorcerous free-for-all.

Would you deploy a single large force of sorcerers with other types of troop in a sort-of combined arms fashion? Given my technology level this would be heavy cavalry, archers, infantry etc, maybe some early cannon - bombards and the like. Or is it more likely that individual units would have 1-2 sorcerers embedded (a healing specialist and a fireball specialist maybe)? I can see advantages and disadvantages either way.

I think this would depend very heavily on the details of how magic works in your world. Could you explain that further?

It all depends on how you make magic work: how powerful it is, how much skill is required, what costs there are, what defenses are available. If your sorcerors dominate battle and you don't want them to, give them some sort of limitation.

I'd also note that if Country A has a major military advantage, Country B will do everything it can, including reorganizing itself completely, to counter that. E.g. if you have horse nomads nearby, you split mountains to have your own cavalry— or buy off the nearer nomads. That's basically why medieval Europe had an aristocracy which acted as a permanent, well-trained cavalry. If the southerners can wield 5000 military sorcerors, the northerners need to create their own.

Magic is often treated (e.g. in video games) as essentially free: you can stand there and cast Fireball all day long. That's a huge military advantage over the bowman or cannoneer who will eventually run out of ammo. So one approach is to add a significant cost.

Another is defense. Can you put up a magical shield? Then the attackers' magic is blunted or eliminated.

A lot of magic systems come up with some systemic flaw— a popular one is that for some reason they can't handle iron. So the sorceror has to run away if someone runs up with a steel dagger. With the right choice of flaw, there is room for a conventional army.

How do the Xularn emperors protect themselves against sorcerous usurpers? Or is that what they are themselves?

My first thought is that magic or no magic, demographics matter a lot in war. So Melland is going to have trouble against Xularn in an open battle, magic or no magic. This could be made up through logistics, or superior terrain.

One possible model is to treat the fireball throwers as artillery, and the healers as combat medics.

One trope I like is having magic be unreliable somehow. Maybe magic works different in Melland than in Xularn? Or maybe the fireballs stop working? Or killing too many people with the fireballs ends up corrupting the user?

I was reading stuff on traditional healers in rural France. The tradition in some places is basically that there's a spell of sorts that allows you to heal people, and some people have a magical gift (that runs in the family in a more or less random pattern). So a healer is a person that has the gift and knows the spells (it's been taught to them by their elders.) The interesting bit, if you don't have the gift, you can still say the words and it will kinda work. It won't work very well, but it will sort of work. Going back to fantasy, I could see a country beleaguered by huge magical forces try that sort of tactic.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:45 am I was reading stuff on traditional healers in rural France. The tradition in some places is basically that there's a spell of sorts that allows you to heal people, and some people have a magical gift (that runs in the family in a more or less random pattern). So a healer is a person that has the gift and knows the spells (it's been taught to them by their elders.) The interesting bit, if you don't have the gift, you can still say the words and it will kinda work. It won't work very well, but it will sort of work.

Wow, that sounds fascinating. What were you reading?

It was a coupeuse de feu talking about her gift, on Threads I think. The trouble with these <redacted> <redacted> <redacted> apps is that you can't find posts anymore when you look for them.

Coupeurs de feu are folks that can supposedly cure burns. In France, people wholeheartedly believe in them, even otherwise rational people. That includes medical professionals. (I personally don't. People will judge you for not calling one if you get burned!)

I'm a bit sad I lost that thread; the girl who posted it had the gift and knew the spell, but emphatetically did not believe in it. It didn't matter, as people around here were convinced she had the power and, I mean, what are you gonna do?
Another thing that struck me is how matter of fact and down to earth the thing is. You'd think passing on 'the secret' would be some sort of mystical ceremony, but no -- she along with her mother and sister got taught the spell on a regular Sunday afternoon when everyone was bored. Also people can heal you over the phone if needed.

I also read about it in a memoir (La Billebaude), otherwise empty of any supernatural elements (it's about growing up in a farm in Burgundy and it's exactly as exciting as it sounds). The author just got the secret passed on to him and 100% believed in it. One added bit of drama is that the formula (which the author wouldn't share, of course!) supposedly invokes the devil. So you have to be extra careful to use it for good.

I know there have been serious sociological studies on the phenomenon; at some point I'll go check these out. I'll be sure to share the good bits when I do.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am <snip>

Thank you, very interesting!

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am Coupeurs de feu are folks that can supposedly cure burns. In France, people wholeheartedly believe in them, even otherwise rational people. That includes medical professionals. (I personally don't. People will judge you for not calling one if you get burned!)

Yeah, two family members treated for cancers used the services of one of them to mitigate the effects of radiation therapy. The doctors were fine with it, as the coupeur de feu didn't charge for it.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am One added bit of drama is that the formula (which the author wouldn't share, of course!) supposedly invokes the devil. So you have to be extra careful to use it for good.

Old-fashioned prayers to the patron saint in the case I know of.

Sorry about derailing the thread! I wasn't expecting that.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:16 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am <snip>

Thank you, very interesting!

Do you have that kind of folk healers in Germany? I'd expect you do -- the cultural gap is not that great.

Vilike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:29 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am Coupeurs de feu are folks that can supposedly cure burns. In France, people wholeheartedly believe in them, even otherwise rational people. That includes medical professionals. (I personally don't. People will judge you for not calling one if you get burned!)

Yeah, two family members treated for cancers used the services of one of them to mitigate the effects of radiation therapy. The doctors were fine with it, as the coupeur de feu didn't charge for it.

I also heard about doctors recommending against a coupeur de feu, on the grounds that it would interfere with the radiation therapy. Which makes a weird sort of sense, I guess?

Vilike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:29 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am One added bit of drama is that the formula (which the author wouldn't share, of course!) supposedly invokes the devil. So you have to be extra careful to use it for good.

Old-fashioned prayers to the patron saint in the case I know of.

I'm pretty sure the author made up the part about the devil! Or his grandfather did. Prayer to the patron saint is exactly how I imagine it.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:40 am Sorry about derailing the thread! I wasn't expecting that.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:16 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:18 am <snip>

Thank you, very interesting!

Do you have that kind of folk healers in Germany? I'd expect you do -- the cultural gap is not that great.

Not really, but "alternative medicine" is extremely popular here, and to some extent practised by regular medical professionals. "Alternative" treatments are sold in regular pharmacies. Oh, and I think - I'm not sure about that last point - there are people who professionally talk to warts in ways that can supposedly cure those warts.

Well, there is also people curing all kinds of sicknesses by pressing on your bones. German 'healers' usually have fancy names like Chiropraktik or Antroposophie or the like but I think they are mostly the same as healers in other places. There used to be a large overlap with environmentalists but there is a trend for alternative medicin to be combined with extreme right-wing political views such as the Neue Germanische Medizin. Probably still a bit different from french fire healers.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:40 am
Do you have that kind of folk healers in Germany? I'd expect you do -- the cultural gap is not that great.

Here in my corner of "culturally German" France, we have Schlofer ('sleepers') as the name for sorcerers folk healers. They're still a thing in rural settings, especially in the mountains. Everybody in my parents' generation knows at least one.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:59 am Well, there is also people curing all kinds of sicknesses by pressing on your bones. German 'healers' usually have fancy names like Chiropraktik or Antroposophie or the like but I think they are mostly the same as healers in other places. There used to be a large overlap with environmentalists but there is a trend for alternative medicin to be combined with extreme right-wing political views such as the Neue Germanische Medizin. Probably still a bit different from french fire healers.

Chiropractic is a pretty international thing. We have them here too. (My university, to its shame, has a whole department for them.)

That being said, I wouldn’t call it magic per se. It’s pseudoscience, but that’s the thing — pseudoscience is thought of as scientific by its practitioners. That seems quite clearly different to the case of these coupeurs de feu.

Well, I think there is some overlap here. Not healers, but a very large and succesful brand of organic food in Germany follows Anthroposophical pricipals that include burying a cows horn at full moon, which was revealed to their founder in a dream. I find it hard to see how to not think of this as magic from an outsiders perspective. But maybe that's the German perspective.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:11 am Well, I think there is some overlap here. Not healers, but a very large and succesful brand of organic foot in Germany follows Anthroposophical pricipals that include burying a cows horn at full moon, which was revealed to their founder in a dream. I find it hard to see how to not think of this as magic from an outsiders perspective. But maybe that's the German perspective.

OK, yes, I would certainly consider that magical. Perhaps your Chiropraktik is different to our Chiropractic.

(Also… ‘foot’? Is that a typo?)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:43 am
(Also… ‘foot’? Is that a typo?)

I guess it is, though I find the idea of people eating organic feet amusing.

We definitely have all the branches of alternative medicine mentioned here too. Especially where I live.

That bit with the cow horn (which also has to be filled with cow dung) is part of something called biodynamic agriculture. It's very common in wine growing.

Most people figure biodynamic agriculture is just organic agriculture of some kind. (agriculture bio in French, which helps confuses matter -- also they don't really advertise the cow horn part). You can think of it as a farming variation on homeopathic medicine - also very popular.
(Though it's not related to homeopathy; as Creyeditor mentions it's a branch of anthroposophy, which as far as I know originated as far-right pseudo science.)

This all feels more pseudo-science than magic... yet there is a lot of overlap. You'll have coupeurs de feu that are also alternate medicine practitioners. All of these are related to the magnétiseurs... do you have any of these? magnetisers, mesmerists?

I have the feeling that most of these alternate practices are relatively recent, 19th and 20th century. The coupeurs de feu and other healers seem to be part of an older tradition -- but it may well turn out not to be the case. Many 'traditions' are no older than the last century.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 6:45 am All of these are related to the magnétiseurs... do you have any of these? magnetisers, mesmerists?

Nope.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:02 pm I think this would depend very heavily on the details of how magic works in your world. Could you explain that further?

One limitation is definitely that sorcerers are going to get very tired after a while. Wielding a heavy sword all day is hard work as is shooting a longbow given the draw strength required. Sorcery is no different (and frankly why should it be?). Although I haven't got the details all worked out, sorcery is a bit reminiscent of occult philosophies and occult chemistry. There are seven elements - air, fire, water, earth, light, dark and aether. Aether though isn't really a physical element it is a link between the spiritual and the physical and exists as a finer substance that the coarser six physical elements. Sorcery is defined as the use of a person's aetheric body to manipulate the physical elemental particles to produce physical effects. So I throw a fireball when I am able to use my aetheric body to put together enough phlogiston to produce a fireball the size I want. The effort of consciously controlling your aetheric body to either move through the aetheric plane or to produce these physical effects is pretty mentally tiring

That's why I was thinking along the lines of just combining fireball guys (say) with more conventional medieval soldiers in combined arms tactics essentially. It becomes a question of how those tactics work now.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:43 am
(Also… ‘foot’? Is that a typo?)

It was a typo.