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Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:23 am
by HolyKnowing
How do I originate a vowel system for my conlang?
Some design principles:
1. Phonemic distinction between long and short vowels are mandatory. There is a human reason for this.
2. {a, i, u, aː, iː, uː} is too simple of a vowel system.
3. The common vowel system lengthened {a, i, u, e, o, aː, iː, uː, eː, oː} is also too simple.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:29 am
by Zju
By 'originate' do you mean how to derive it diachronically or just how to design it?
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:30 am
by HolyKnowing
Zju wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:29 am
By 'originate' do you mean how to derive it diachronically or just how to design it?
Good question. Thank you. I meant the latter.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:35 am
by Zju
As far as I recall, there was this general rule of thumb for a naturalistic vowel system:
1. Pick one of: /a i u~o/, /a e~ə i u/, /a e i o u/, /a ɛ i ɔ u/, /a ɛ e i ɔ o u/
2. Make up to two changes. A change is one of the following: dropping a vowel, adding a vowel, substituting a vowel with another.
3. Make sure that surface realisations / allophones still cover all of [a i u]
4. For length, anywhere between one and all vowels can have long counterparts. Long vowels tend to have more central realisation
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:38 am
by Travis B.
Zju wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:35 am
4. For length, anywhere between one and all vowels can have long counterparts. Long vowels tend to have more central realisation
I presume that was a mistype and you mean
short vowels tend to have more central realization.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:41 am
by Zju
I meant to say that low long vowels tend to heighten: [ɛː ɔː] → [eː oː]
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:47 am
by Travis B.
Zju wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:41 am
I meant to say that low long vowels tend to heighten: [ɛː ɔː] → [eː oː]
I.e. then tend to me
tenser, which in many ways is the opposite of being more central. Also, long low vowels tend to be
lower than short low vowels.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 2:01 pm
by alice
Zju wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:35 am
As far as I recall, there was this general rule of thumb for a naturalistic vowel system:
1. Pick one of: /a i u~o/, /a e~ə i u/, /a e i o u/, /a ɛ i ɔ u/, /a ɛ e i ɔ o u/
2. Make up to two changes. A change is one of the following: dropping a vowel, adding a vowel, substituting a vowel with another.
3. Make sure that surface realisations / allophones still cover all of [a i u]
4. For length, anywhere between one and all vowels can have long counterparts. Long vowels tend to have more central realisation
For number 2 I'd instead suggest "up to two
systematic changes", although for "interesting" results you may need more than two. This could include processes such as umlaut, compensatory lengthening, split, and merger, Have a look at the evolution of the English vowel system from PIE for something particularly "interesting".
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 4:00 pm
by Travis B.
Also, it is extremely common to have one or two non-open central vowels (e.g. classical Modern English's schwa and schwi) on top of the basic systems mentioned above, and one should not have to expend one's "two changes" to get these.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 7:59 pm
by HolyKnowing
Zju wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:35 am
As far as I recall, there was this general rule of thumb for a naturalistic vowel system:
1. Pick one of: /a i u~o/, /a e~ə i u/, /a e i o u/, /a ɛ i ɔ u/, /a ɛ e i ɔ o u/
2. Make up to two changes. A change is one of the following: dropping a vowel, adding a vowel, substituting a vowel with another.
3. Make sure that surface realisations / allophones still cover all of [a i u]
4. For length, anywhere between one and all vowels can have long counterparts. Long vowels tend to have more central realisation
This is an excellent
continuation. Thank you for your lispy cleverness.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 8:25 pm
by bradrn
I can’t believe no-one has yet linked
this guide from the old board. It’s a great overview of what kinds of vowel systems are found in natlangs.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:21 pm
by Ketsuban
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 8:25 pm
I can’t believe no-one has yet linked
this guide from the old board. It’s a great overview of what kinds of vowel systems are found in natlangs.
With how much people keep referencing Alice's work here despite it having succumbed to linkrot
multiple times I feel like it needs to be better preserved, perhaps on zompist.com, with some commentary and redaction - I distinctly remember some criticism of the practice of giving "the short vowel system of X" as an example of a particular vowel system "shape" because vowels don't exist in a vacuum like that.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:49 pm
by alice
And once again my past comes back to haunt me. Did nobody notice that Lass's Phonology got there first?
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:56 pm
by Ketsuban
That section of my copy of Lass is well-thumbed, but I thought the increased detail you provide is more relevant for conlanging.
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:07 pm
by Glass Half Baked
HolyKnowing, what is holding you back from picking a vowel system? Are there other design criteria that would prevent you from just having a seven vowel tirangle or something?
Re: Help originating a vowel system?
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:17 pm
by alice
Ketsuban wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:56 pm
That section of my copy of Lass is well-thumbed, but I thought the increased detail you provide is more relevant for conlanging.
That's nice to know
