Zompist Bboard Again

For generations, countless international movies and TV shows, most of them originally English, have been dubbed into German for German-speaking audiences. Whatever about the pros and cons of doing that, here I'm mainly interested in certain conventions that developed among the writers of the dubbing scripts.

(For the record, I'm mainly working with what I remember from watching TV and movies back in the 1990s here; since the mid-2000s, I've usually watched original versions, so there might be later developments I don't know about.)

First of all, some specific English words are generally left untranslated. These are mainly "Mom", "Dad", "Sir", "Ma'am", and military and police ranks.

Second, there's a specific German phrase that's not actually used in real-life German, but is always used in the context of addressing Anglophone judges, that is "Euer Ehren", the literal (using the pluralis majestatis) translation of "Your Honor".

And third, there's the combination of addressing someone by their first name instead of their surname while also using the formal address "Sie". This is, in my experience, rarely ever ever done in real life (the one example I can think of is teachers addressing older students in school), but it is common in translations of English texts when two characters are on a first name base in the original English, but the translator thought that they would address each other as "Sie" if they were German.

Now, what I'm curious about is, are there counterparts to all this in other languages?

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:04 am First of all, some specific English words are generally left untranslated. These are mainly "Mom", "Dad", "Sir", "Ma'am", and military and police ranks.

No, these are all translated in French except for shérif (which covers I think 'sheriff' and 'marshall').

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:04 am Second, there's a specific German phrase that's not actually used in real-life German, but is always used in the context of addressing Anglophone judges, that is "Euer Ehren", the literal (using the pluralis majestatis) translation of "Your Honor".

Same in French with votre honneur. Supposedly it often happens that people adress (French) judges as 'votre honneur', unaware that it's never a proper form of address.

And third, there's the combination of addressing someone by their first name instead of their surname while also using the formal address "Sie". This is, in my experience, rarely ever ever done in real life (the one example I can think of is teachers addressing older students in school), but it is common in translations of English texts when two characters are on a first name base in the original English, but the translator thought that they would address each other as "Sie" if they were German.

Same with vous + last name, with the difference that the combination is idiomatic French, at least in some contexts.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:04 am And third, there's the combination of addressing someone by their first name instead of their surname while also using the formal address "Sie". This is, in my experience, rarely ever ever done in real life (the one example I can think of is teachers addressing older students in school), but it is common in translations of English texts when two characters are on a first name base in the original English, but the translator thought that they would address each other as "Sie" if they were German.

One thing to note is that here in the US, at least in software engineering, is that it is normal to address coworkers by their first name, so first-name basis is actually very broad. E.g. the only person I work with who I address by last name is my boss, who is Indian and who universally at my work goes by a clipped version of his last name. The main social situation in which last names are primarily used here is when addressing teachers, professors, and like (for instance for most of my teachers in school I never even knew their first names).

Indonesian has a movie subtitle register which mixes literary language (using tak as a negation and cliticized pronouns as you do in love songs), Standard Indonesian (especially in syntax), and colloquial/slang words.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:04 amAnd third, there's the combination of addressing someone by their first name instead of their surname while also using the formal address "Sie.

Isn't this known as the Hamburger Sie?

The first one that comes to mind is merhaba in Turkish. Apparently it wasn't a very common form of face-to-face address until it started being used to translate "hello" in dubs of English-language media.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:26 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:04 amAnd third, there's the combination of addressing someone by their first name instead of their surname while also using the formal address "Sie.

Isn't this known as the Hamburger Sie?

Possible. This is the first time I hear that term, despite being from the Hamburg region.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:26 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:04 amAnd third, there's the combination of addressing someone by their first name instead of their surname while also using the formal address "Sie.

Isn't this known as the Hamburger Sie?

It is. And there is also a Münchener Du, which is the reverse: last name and du.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:38 pm And there is also a Münchener Du, which is the reverse: last name and du.

I think I only heard that once in my life, back in school, when a young assistant/trainee teacher addressed one of the regular teachers as "Du, Herr [name of teacher]". IIRC all those of us who overheard that at the time found it pretty weird.

A weird thing here is that sometimes movies get another English title in France (though a presumably easier one?)

Yet Another Teen Movie became Sex Academy (because sex sells, I guess)
Made in Dagenham became We Want Sex Equality (sex still sells, also I'm not sure this is idiomatic English, but who cares?)
The Hangover > Very Bad Trip (An interesting case; bad trip is arguably a French idiom too now.)
The Man Who Wasn't There got a French-English translation The Barber - l'homme qui n'existait pas..

The Swedish series Äkta människor was translated as Real Humans, because presumably it's not science fiction if the title isn't in English?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:34 pm A weird thing here is that sometimes movies get another English title in France (though a presumably easier one?)

Yet Another Teen Movie became Sex Academy (because sex sells, I guess)
Made in Dagenham became We Want Sex Equality (sex still sells, also I'm not sure this is idiomatic English, but who cares?)
The Hangover > Very Bad Trip (An interesting case; bad trip is arguably a French idiom too now.)
The Man Who Wasn't There got a French-English translation The Barber - l'homme qui n'existait pas..

The Swedish series Äkta människor was translated as Real Humans, because presumably it's not science fiction if the title isn't in English?

Over here, Bend it like Beckham became Kick it like Beckham, presumably because more people could translate "kick" than could translate "bend". (Hey, Germany has long had a soccer magazine called kicker.)

Oh, this is European French usage. Quebec law insists on entirely French titles.
Quebec French dubs feel a bit weird; the actors don't have their usual voices, and the idioms are often different.

We'd need an actual Quebec perspective here, but my feeling is that Quebec French dubs aim towards something very close to European French; the accent isn't really noticeable -- though word choices and idioms can be strikingly different.

I think I mentioned this here before, but while dubbing is almost always very poor, a few shows have been improved by dubbing. Notably South Park; they got a larger cast and the translators improved on the jokes. (I started South Park in the French dub; when I watched the original version I was surprised at how bad it was.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:34 pm A weird thing here is that sometimes movies get another English title in France (though a presumably easier one?)

Yet Another Teen Movie became Sex Academy (because sex sells, I guess)
Made in Dagenham became We Want Sex Equality (sex still sells, also I'm not sure this is idiomatic English, but who cares?)
The Hangover > Very Bad Trip (An interesting case; bad trip is arguably a French idiom too now.)
The Man Who Wasn't There got a French-English translation The Barber - l'homme qui n'existait pas..

The Swedish series Äkta människor was translated as Real Humans, because presumably it's not science fiction if the title isn't in English?

Oh, I distinctly remember seeing some weird title translations when I was in Paris. I’m still trying to work out how Despicable Me became Moi, moche et méchant.

(It was a fun game for me to try work out the English titles from the French ones. There seemed to be movie posters everywhere, plus a cinema near my apartment, so I had plenty of opportunity…)

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:30 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:26 pm Isn't this known as the Hamburger Sie?

Possible. This is the first time I hear that term, despite being from the Hamburg region.

I've seen it called that, but like Raphael, I've only encountered it in dubbing and in the "teacher addresses adult students" scenario.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:38 pm It is. And there is also a Münchener Du, which is the reverse: last name and du.

This, OTOH, is also quite frequent in Northern Germany; you can hear it used by employees in service industries, e.g., a cashier in a supermarket asking Frau Müller, kannst du Kasse drei übernehmen? "Mrs. Müller, can you (INFORMAL) take over checkout no. three?"

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:46 pm I think I only heard that once in my life, back in school, when a young assistant/trainee teacher addressed one of the regular teachers as "Du, Herr [name of teacher]". IIRC all those of us who overheard that at the time found it pretty weird.

Yes, while that combination is used by little children for kindergarten and elementary school teachers, they usually grow out of it by age 8 or 9...

I haven't watched a French dub in a long time, but here are a few things I remember about "dubbing French".

When to use "tu" or "vous" is often a problem. Often, we see characters that start with "vous" (they've just met and the situation seems to warrant it), but by the end of the story they've become close enough that they should use "tu". A funny pattern my mother noticed: the male lead character and the female lead character use "vous" until they have sex, at which point they switch to "tu".[*] In Sherlock, the two main characters switch between episode 1 and episode 2, which confused some viewers. I remember an episode of The X-Files where the translators did something interesting: when Mulder first meets a new colleague, Alex Krycek, they replaced one of Mulder's sentences with "On peut se tutoyer" (we can call each other "tu").

[*] Indeed, it would be weird to say "vous" to a sex partner, unless you're hiding it in public (like the classic "underling sleeping with the boss"), or you're from a very conservative upper-class family (like Jacques and Bernadette Chirac).

I remember some American expressions that are sometimes left untranslated, or calqued, in a way that wouldn't happen in real life. For example, "African-American" and "Caucasian" become "afro-américain" and "caucasien", which are rarely used outside of translations from US English (unless you're actually speaking about the Caucasus).

In works involving soldiers, "sir" gets translated as "chef" or "m'sieur", especially when doing the "sir sandwich", so in Full Metal Jacket, "sir yes sir" became "chef oui chef". In the actual French army, superiors are addressed by their grade, like "mon capitaine".

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:46 pm I think I only heard that once in my life, back in school, when a young assistant/trainee teacher addressed one of the regular teachers as "Du, Herr [name of teacher]". IIRC all those of us who overheard that at the time found it pretty weird.

I sometimes hear this combination from, let's say, uneducated people. For example, beggars on the street will sometimes ask me "Monsieur, t'as pas une petite pièce?" or "Hé Monsieur, t'as pas une cigarette?" ("Sir, would you (informal) have a spare coin / a cigarette?")

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:14 am I remember some American expressions that are sometimes left untranslated, or calqued, in a way that wouldn't happen in real life. For example, "African-American" and "Caucasian" become "afro-américain" and "caucasien", which are rarely used outside of translations from US English (unless you're actually speaking about the Caucasus)

One thing to remember is that "African-American" and "Caucasian" are very formal American English, bordering on officialese; actual Americans would typically say "Black" or "White" outside formal contexts (even though strictly speaking these are not synonyms, as not all Black people are African-Americans, and not all "Caucasians", e.g. Arabs, would be typically considered White).

Well, they're common enough in police procedurals.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 15, 2025 10:59 am Well, they're common enough in police procedurals.

That's exactly where I expected you'd encountered them, as they are stereotypical police-speak.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:14 am
When to use "tu" or "vous" is often a problem. Often, we see characters that start with "vous" (they've just met and the situation seems to warrant it), but by the end of the story they've become close enough that they should use "tu". A funny pattern my mother noticed: the male lead character and the female lead character use "vous" until they have sex, at which point they switch to "tu".[*] In Sherlock, the two main characters switch between episode 1 and episode 2, which confused some viewers. I remember an episode of The X-Files where the translators did something interesting: when Mulder first meets a new colleague, Alex Krycek, they replaced one of Mulder's sentences with "On peut se tutoyer" (we can call each other "tu").

There's a somewhat interesting variation in the German dubbed version of the old classic movie In the Heat of the Night: early in the movie, Chief Gillespie addresses Virgil Tibbs as "du", apparently to indicate his "Black people aren't deserving of the respect implied by a formal address"-racism. Late in the movie, he addresses him as "sie", apparently to indicate his increased respect.