Zompist Bboard Again

There are some place names in America that are pronounced differently in the place that they refer to, or alternatively: There are some place names in America that are habitually pronounced incorrectly outside of the place that they refer to.

Examples that I can think of:
(format: word -- pronunciation in the place -- pronunciation outside the place)
- Oregon (the state) -- /"or@gIn/ -- /"or@gAn/
- Boise (the capitol city of Idaho) -- /"bojsi/ -- /"bojzi/
- Minot (a city in North Daktoa) -- /"majnIt/ -- /"majnAt/

Honorable Mention:
- bison (the animal) -- /"bajzIn/ -- /"bajsIn/
(In Fargo, North Dakota, the local university's sports mascot is the "bison". In the city, it's pronounced with /z/, but outside of it, it's pronounced with /s/, much to my surprise.)

I suspect that these are spelling pronunciations, given that two examples are /I/ vs /A/, and two are /z/ vs /s/. (However, it's interesting that the two /z/ vs /s/ examples don't agree which is preferred.) Naturally, people that don't live in a place are more likely to encounter the word in a written context instead of a spoken one.

Can you think of any other examples? (Other languages are welcome too.)

Pierre, South Dakota. [piɻ] or [ˈpi.ɻ] to lovals, /piˈɛɻ/ to everyone else.

I suspect these two would be Australian examples:

Wollongong — /ˈwʊləŋɡɒŋ/ — /ˈwɒləŋɡɒŋ/
Waitara — /waiˈtɑːɹa/ — /wɛ͡iˈtɑːɹa/

But I’m not completely sure of either pronunciation here, neither for the locals nor for the non-locals. I have a suspicion that the ‘non-local’ pronunciations may simply be an invention of my own family (us being immigrants), with the correct pronunciations being the more widespread ones.

On the other hand, there’s some well-known place names which are pronounced correctly within Australia, but often mispronounced by non-Australians:

Cairns — /kæːnz/ — /keːnz/
Melbourne — /ˈmɛlbən/ — /ˈmɛlboːn/
Brisbane — /ˈbɹɪzbən/ — /ˈbɹɪzbɛ͡in/

Plus the completely bizarre Indooroopilly, which reportedly is pronounced /ɪndɹəˈpɪliː/ (though I haven’t actually heard it said myself).

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:40 am Honorable Mention:
- bison (the animal) -- /"bajzIn/ -- /"bajsIn/
(In Fargo, North Dakota, the local university's sports mascot is the "bison". In the city, it's pronounced with /z/, but outside of it, it's pronounced with /s/, much to my surprise.)

Don't forget to add the British /ˈbʌjsən/¹. I have nothing else actually interesting or useful to say.

¹ Or /bʌjsn/ if you prefer. I no longer except anything other than /ʌj/ or /ʌi̯/² for PRICE, because of the invaluable evidence of Parsnip language³
² Dont really care which one. I just choose the easier to type
³ I was going to post something about it here actually. I'll save the explaination for then. It would take too long and I have Christmas to do

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:12 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:40 am Honorable Mention:
- bison (the animal) -- /"bajzIn/ -- /"bajsIn/
(In Fargo, North Dakota, the local university's sports mascot is the "bison". In the city, it's pronounced with /z/, but outside of it, it's pronounced with /s/, much to my surprise.)

Don't forget to add the British /ˈbʌjsən/¹. I have nothing else actually interesting or useful to say.

Is there really a phonemic distinction between [-ɪn ~ -ən ~ -n̩] in any variety?

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:12 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:40 am Honorable Mention:
- bison (the animal) -- /"bajzIn/ -- /"bajsIn/
(In Fargo, North Dakota, the local university's sports mascot is the "bison". In the city, it's pronounced with /z/, but outside of it, it's pronounced with /s/, much to my surprise.)

Don't forget to add the British /ˈbʌjsən/¹. I have nothing else actually interesting or useful to say.

¹ Or /bʌjsn/ if you prefer. I no longer except anything other than /ʌj/ or /ʌi̯/² for PRICE, because of the invaluable evidence of Parsnip language³
² Dont really care which one. I just choose the easier to type
³ I was going to post something about it here actually. I'll save the explaination for then. It would take too long and I have Christmas to do

Does British English really (phonemically) contrast between /ʌj/ and /aj/ ?

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 1:11 am I suspect these two would be Australian examples:

Wollongong — /ˈwʊləŋɡɒŋ/ — /ˈwɒləŋɡɒŋ/
Waitara — /waiˈtɑːɹa/ — /wɛ͡iˈtɑːɹa/

But I’m not completely sure of either pronunciation here, neither for the locals nor for the non-locals. I have a suspicion that the ‘non-local’ pronunciations may simply be an invention of my own family (us being immigrants), with the correct pronunciations being the more widespread ones.

On the other hand, there’s some well-known place names which are pronounced correctly within Australia, but often mispronounced by non-Australians:

Cairns — /kæːnz/ — /keːnz/
Melbourne — /ˈmɛlbən/ — /ˈmɛlboːn/
Brisbane — /ˈbɹɪzbən/ — /ˈbɹɪzbɛ͡in/

Plus the completely bizarre Indooroopilly, which reportedly is pronounced /ɪndɹəˈpɪliː/ (though I haven’t actually heard it said myself).

How should somebody with a rhotic accent correctly say those words? /"kernz/, /"mElbr=n/, and /"brIzbIn/ ?

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:15 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 1:11 am I suspect these two would be Australian examples:

Wollongong — /ˈwʊləŋɡɒŋ/ — /ˈwɒləŋɡɒŋ/
Waitara — /waiˈtɑːɹa/ — /wɛ͡iˈtɑːɹa/

But I’m not completely sure of either pronunciation here, neither for the locals nor for the non-locals. I have a suspicion that the ‘non-local’ pronunciations may simply be an invention of my own family (us being immigrants), with the correct pronunciations being the more widespread ones.

On the other hand, there’s some well-known place names which are pronounced correctly within Australia, but often mispronounced by non-Australians:

Cairns — /kæːnz/ — /keːnz/
Melbourne — /ˈmɛlbən/ — /ˈmɛlboːn/
Brisbane — /ˈbɹɪzbən/ — /ˈbɹɪzbɛ͡in/

Plus the completely bizarre Indooroopilly, which reportedly is pronounced /ɪndɹəˈpɪliː/ (though I haven’t actually heard it said myself).

How should somebody with a rhotic accent correctly say those words? /"kernz/, /"mElbr=n/, and /"brIzbIn/ ?

Um… the same way? As far as I can see, none of those has any rhotic vowels in the ‘correct’ pronunciation (which is the first one).

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:26 am Is there really a phonemic distinction between [-ɪn ~ -ən ~ -n̩] in any variety?

I have (Vladimir) Lenin [ˈlɛnɪn] vs (John) Lennon [ˈlɛɾ̃n̥]

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:12 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:12 am Don't forget to add the British /ˈbʌjsən/¹. I have nothing else actually interesting or useful to say.

¹ Or /bʌjsn/ if you prefer. I no longer except anything other than /ʌj/ or /ʌi̯/² for PRICE

Does British English really (phonemically) contrast between /ʌj/ and /aj/ ?

No, but the Starting point of PRICE is CUT¹

¹ I will provide the Parsnip language evidence, since it seems to be controversial.

Parsnip language² is a language game where each vowel in the utterence is replaced by /VləgV/. Crucially, long vowels are shortened in the initial V, and diphthongs only use the first member. I analyse this as the diphthongs³ being Vj and Vw. The crucial evidence is that PRICE is reflected as /ʌləɡʌj/. For example “My name's James dobedobedo”⁴ becomes /mʌləɡʌj nɛləɡɛjz d͡ʒɛləɡɛjz dɵwbɪjdɵwbɪjdɵw⁵/⁶⁷. The phonetic starting point is very similar, but this is the evidence for it being phonemic, and not just a phonetic realisation of /aj/.

² What my family knows it as. I have no idea if the name, or even the game is more general than my family
³ I don't really have an opinion on if long vowels should be analysed as phonemic or as /Vɹ/ sequences. It doesn't really effect the result, although phonemic long vowels do require oneore rule
⁴ The first line of the Theme tune of James the Cat. For some reason this is traditional to sing in Parsnip language. Don't ask me why.
⁵ This bit doesn't get parsnipified. Again, don't ask me why.
⁶ On the other hand, MOUTH is reflected as /aləɡaw/ e.g. /naləɡaw ʌləɡʌjm hɪləɡɪː/ “Now I'm here”.
⁷ Bare in mind SSBE strut is very low.

When I do an internet search for "parsnip language", I'm told that it's an acronym for "politics, alcohol, religion, sex, narcotics, -isms, pork", and means things not to be discussed when teaching people additional languages.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:27 am When I do an internet search for "parsnip language", I'm told that it's an acronym for "politics, alcohol, religion, sex, narcotics, -isms, pork", and means things not to be discussed when teaching people additional languages.

I am unaware of that meaning; that's rather funny. As I said, it might not be a thing outside of my family

Edit: the Wikipedia article, in case anyone doesn't know what a language game is. It's not on the list, but again, I don't think it's that widespread.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 1:11 am I suspect these two would be Australian examples:

Wollongong — /ˈwʊləŋɡɒŋ/ — /ˈwɒləŋɡɒŋ/
Waitara — /waiˈtɑːɹa/ — /wɛ͡iˈtɑːɹa/

But I’m not completely sure of either pronunciation here, neither for the locals nor for the non-locals. I have a suspicion that the ‘non-local’ pronunciations may simply be an invention of my own family (us being immigrants), with the correct pronunciations being the more widespread ones.

I'm not from Wollongong but I pronounce it the first way.

bradrn wrote: Is there really a phonemic distinction between [-ɪn ~ -ən ~ -n̩] in any variety?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonologi ... wel_merger

jcb wrote: How should somebody with a rhotic accent correctly say those words? /"kernz/, /"mElbr=n/, and /"brIzbIn/ ?

Probably, yeah.

bradrn wrote:Um… the same way? As far as I can see, none of those has any rhotic vowels in the ‘correct’ pronunciation (which is the first one).

Rhotic speakers shouldn't be expected to pronounce Australian placenames in a non-rhotic way, any more than Australians should be expected to use a rhotic pronunciation for foreign placenames.

The city of Milwaukee is typically pronounced [məːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from southeastern Wisconsin and [mɪːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from elsewhere. As for the pronunciation [mɪːɫˈwɒci(ː)], that is practically a spelling pronunciation in GA and Wisconsinites almost never pronounce Milwaukee with an /l/.

Other placenames with varying pronunciations here are Waukesha and Racine; I am used to their usual pronunciations of [ˈwɒkɘˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷɘˈsĩ(ː)n] but allegedly people from those places pronounce them [ˈwɒciˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷe̞ˈsĩ(ː)n] respectively.

In Germany, there are places like Mecklenburg, which have /e:/ as the first selling even though Standard German spelling leads many people to believe it to be /E/. This actually is part of a more general pattern in Northern Germany, where <eck> is read as /e:k/ instead of expected /Ek/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:56 am The city of Milwaukee is typically pronounced [məːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from southeastern Wisconsin and [mɪːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from elsewhere. As for the pronunciation [mɪːɫˈwɒci(ː)], that is practically a spelling pronunciation in GA and Wisconsinites almost never pronounce Milwaukee with an /l/.

Other placenames with varying pronunciations here are Waukesha and Racine; I am used to their usual pronunciations of [ˈwɒkɘˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷɘˈsĩ(ː)n] but allegedly people from those places pronounce them [ˈwɒciˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷe̞ˈsĩ(ː)n] respectively.

What are those phonologically, so I can work out what they'd be in my ideolect?

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:24 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:56 am The city of Milwaukee is typically pronounced [məːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from southeastern Wisconsin and [mɪːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from elsewhere. As for the pronunciation [mɪːɫˈwɒci(ː)], that is practically a spelling pronunciation in GA and Wisconsinites almost never pronounce Milwaukee with an /l/.

Other placenames with varying pronunciations here are Waukesha and Racine; I am used to their usual pronunciations of [ˈwɒkɘˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷɘˈsĩ(ː)n] but allegedly people from those places pronounce them [ˈwɒciˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷe̞ˈsĩ(ː)n] respectively.

What are those phonologically, so I can work out what they'd be in my ideolect?

Milwaukee is normally /məˈwɔːkiː/, with the two different pronunciations reflecting different outcomes of the weak vowel merger (but the closer pronunciation is equivalent to /mɪˈwɔːkiː/ without the merger). Its spelling pronunciation is /mɪlˈwɔːkiː/. The usual pronunciation of Waukesha is /ˈwɔːkəˌʃɔː/ or /ˈwɔːkɪˌʃɔː/ without the merger. The usual pronunciation of Racine is /rəˈsiːn/ or /rɪˈsiːn/ without the merger. Their local pronunciations are /ˈwɔːkiːˌʃɔː/ and /reɪˈsiːn/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:50 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:24 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:56 am The city of Milwaukee is typically pronounced [məːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from southeastern Wisconsin and [mɪːˈwɒci(ː)] by people from elsewhere. As for the pronunciation [mɪːɫˈwɒci(ː)], that is practically a spelling pronunciation in GA and Wisconsinites almost never pronounce Milwaukee with an /l/.

Other placenames with varying pronunciations here are Waukesha and Racine; I am used to their usual pronunciations of [ˈwɒkɘˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷɘˈsĩ(ː)n] but allegedly people from those places pronounce them [ˈwɒciˌʃɒ(ː)] and [ʁˤʷe̞ˈsĩ(ː)n] respectively.

What are those phonologically, so I can work out what they'd be in my ideolect?

Milwaukee is normally /məˈwɔːkiː/, with the two different pronunciations reflecting different outcomes of the weak vowel merger (but the closer pronunciation is equivalent to /mɪˈwɔːkiː/ without the merger). Its spelling pronunciation is /mɪlˈwɔːkiː/. The usual pronunciation of Waukesha is /ˈwɔːkəˌʃɔː/ or /ˈwɔːkɪˌʃɔː/ without the merger. The usual pronunciation of Racine is /rəˈsiːn/ or /rɪˈsiːn/ without the merger. Their local pronunciations are /ˈwɔːkiːˌʃɔː/ and /reɪˈsiːn/.

Thank you

Maryland - ˈmerələnd - ˈmerijˌlænd
Bowie - ˈbuwij - ˈbʌwij
Lancaster - ˈlæŋkɨstər - ˈleəŋˌkæstər
McLean - mɨˈklejn - mɨkˈlijn
Olney - ˈɑlnij - (probably) ˈʌwlnij
Taneytown - ˈtonijtæwn - ˈtejnijtæwn

(o = THOUGHT, ʌw = GOAT)

In the dialect here Maryland is /ˈmɛ̝rələnd/ [ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤɯːɰɘ̃ːnt] -- I have never actually heard anyone pronounce it *Mary-land */ˈmɛ̝riːˌlænd/ *[ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤiːˌʟ̞ɛ̃ːnt].

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 5:03 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:26 am Is there really a phonemic distinction between [-ɪn ~ -ən ~ -n̩] in any variety?

I have (Vladimir) Lenin [ˈlɛnɪn] vs (John) Lennon [ˈlɛɾ̃n̥]

These are merged as /ˈlɛnən/ [ˈʟ̞ɜ̃ːɾ̃ɘ̃(ː)(n)] here.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 5:03 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:12 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:12 am Don't forget to add the British /ˈbʌjsən/¹. I have nothing else actually interesting or useful to say.

¹ Or /bʌjsn/ if you prefer. I no longer except anything other than /ʌj/ or /ʌi̯/² for PRICE

Does British English really (phonemically) contrast between /ʌj/ and /aj/ ?

No, but the Starting point of PRICE is CUT¹

¹ I will provide the Parsnip language evidence, since it seems to be controversial.

Parsnip language² is a language game where each vowel in the utterence is replaced by /VləgV/. Crucially, long vowels are shortened in the initial V, and diphthongs only use the first member. I analyse this as the diphthongs³ being Vj and Vw. The crucial evidence is that PRICE is reflected as /ʌləɡʌj/. For example “My name's James dobedobedo”⁴ becomes /mʌləɡʌj nɛləɡɛjz d͡ʒɛləɡɛjz dɵwbɪjdɵwbɪjdɵw⁵/⁶⁷. The phonetic starting point is very similar, but this is the evidence for it being phonemic, and not just a phonetic realisation of /aj/.

² What my family knows it as. I have no idea if the name, or even the game is more general than my family
³ I don't really have an opinion on if long vowels should be analysed as phonemic or as /Vɹ/ sequences. It doesn't really effect the result, although phonemic long vowels do require oneore rule
⁴ The first line of the Theme tune of James the Cat. For some reason this is traditional to sing in Parsnip language. Don't ask me why.
⁵ This bit doesn't get parsnipified. Again, don't ask me why.
⁶ On the other hand, MOUTH is reflected as /aləɡaw/ e.g. /naləɡaw ʌləɡʌjm hɪləɡɪː/ “Now I'm here”.
⁷ Bare in mind SSBE strut is very low.

Mind you that there is significant variation between EngE varieties, and ScotE shares with much of NAE variation between unraised and raised PRICE.