Zompist Bboard Again

I have decided to start the new year by asking some Almea-related questions that I first drew up a very long time ago, but which I am finally posting now. These questions all predate the Almea +400 project; some apply to earlier periods in Almean history, while others apply more generally.

1. In the description in Virtual Verduria regarding the composition of the Esčambra it states that “There are over a hundred petty barons or baronets (beomulî), which elect a subset of their number to the Esčambra” (16 in 3480). I have been wondering how the “baronets’ election” work: was there a formal election, did they all meet together, or was there a more informal consensus about who the “senior” baronets were? Also, are there any terrestrial parallels to an election of this kind? I can think of some cases that are somewhat similar, but no close parallel.

2. How long can iliu remain out of water? The stories and historical accounts about them portray them as making long journeys overland (to say nothing of their previous capacity for space flight), and you have indicated that they use moisturizing compounds to keep their skin damp, but I do not think that it says anywhere whether there is a limit or not.

3. Magic items: The Almeopedia on magic notes that while alcedlomî are rare, magic items are “not uncommon”, in part because many of them retain their magic for centuries. Some of the items listed are ones that could have major effects in the right context; I am thinking especially of the longstones, which allowed communication at a distance (at least among the few rulers and elite to possess them) centuries and even over a millennium before the invention of the telephone or the radio. However, the Almea +400 project makes almost no mention of magic items; was this a worldbuilding decision, are they assumed to have lost their magic, or were they simply not useful enough in the face of widespread technology?

Where I am particularly curious about this is in the case of Uytai. Earlier in its history, Uytai institutionalized the use of magic and employed hundreds, or even thousands, of magicians in the state’s service in the hope that some of them might prove useful. Presumably, during that time, many magical items were created, but once again, nothing is said about them. Was this in fact the case, and did any of these items survive until later times, and/or play a role in Uytai’s history? The entry in the Historical Atlas does mention that the widespread use of magicians tended to slow the development of technology, and the Uytai of modern (Almea +400) times does come across as a backward and underdeveloped power; on the other hand, the heyday of institutionalized magic is more than two millennia in the past at that point, so the two may not be directly related.

4. On Ȟamšan: The Historical Atlas of Arcél, specifically the city map, indicates that Ȟamšan does not have a writing system as of 3480; however, it has had a well-developed government bureaucracy and, presumably, a taxation and/or tribute system for most of a millennium at that point. The biography of Bruȟre indicates that government business was transacted orally, but was there some kind of tally system for keeping track of taxation, as well as market transactions? (There is a reference to Bruȟre buying houses, ships, and land.) I know that there are earthly examples of well-developed kingdoms and empires without a writing system, or a very limited one (the earliest Mesopotamian city-states; the Inca empire and its use of quipu; possibly some of the states of sub-Saharan Africa?), but I have only a limited knowledge of how they operated.

5. Ktuvok technology: This is the question that actually stumps me more than the others. It is consistently stated that the ktuvoks in the ktuvok empires provided the humans that serve them with technology more advanced than that of the surrounding human populations (agriculture, domesticated animals, in the more advanced cases metallurgy); however, the ktuvoks have no use for most of these things themselves (for example, as carnivores, they have no need to grow crops, unless they do it to feed meat animals). How do the ktuvoks know these more advanced technologies to pass on. A related question: since a kutvok empire is divided into individual techyem with no central authority, how do they decide what technologies to teach their human subjects? Is there some kind of communication or consensus between ktuvoks, does it just evolve over time, and/or is their a degree of diversity from chyem to chyem (perhaps not unlike the way that individual Amish congregations decide what technological items to accept or reject, but there are overall trends among the Old Order Amish, New Order Amish, Schwarzentruber Amish, etc.)?

Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:49 pm I have decided to start the new year by asking some Almea-related questions that I first drew up a very long time ago, but which I am finally posting now. These questions all predate the Almea +400 project; some apply to earlier periods in Almean history, while others apply more generally.

Thanks for the questions!

1. I have been wondering how the “baronets’ election” work: was there a formal election, did they all meet together, or was there a more informal consensus about who the “senior” baronets were? Also, are there any terrestrial parallels to an election of this kind?

I expect they meet in Verduria-city. This might have been a burden for some baronets in the 3200s, but no one could serve in the Esčambra anyway if they couldn't reside in the city during its term .

2. How long can iliu remain out of water? The stories and historical accounts about them portray them as making long journeys overland (to say nothing of their previous capacity for space flight), and you have indicated that they use moisturizing compounds to keep their skin damp, but I do not think that it says anywhere whether there is a limit or not.

They can live indefinitely on land, with care-- but that care may involve baths and lotions or whatever. They would probably wear some sort of suit if they had to operate in, say, the desert or the mountains. They normally live near the sea and travel along rivers. (If you've read Babblers, Beretos meets an iliu near a stream.)

3. Magic items: The Almeopedia on magic notes that while alcedlomî are rare, magic items are “not uncommon”, in part because many of them retain their magic for centuries. Some of the items listed are ones that could have major effects in the right context; I am thinking especially of the longstones, which allowed communication at a distance (at least among the few rulers and elite to possess them) centuries and even over a millennium before the invention of the telephone or the radio. However, the Almea +400 project makes almost no mention of magic items; was this a worldbuilding decision, are they assumed to have lost their magic, or were they simply not useful enough in the face of widespread technology?

I think I'm more hard-nosed today about magic, and magic items, decaying over time. Magic only works in little bubbles of otherworld physics, and those slowly collapse. Something like a longstone might work for a century, but not for millennia.

Where I am particularly curious about this is in the case of Uytai. Earlier in its history, Uytai institutionalized the use of magic and employed hundreds, or even thousands, of magicians in the state’s service in the hope that some of them might prove useful. Presumably, during that time, many magical items were created, but once again, nothing is said about them. Was this in fact the case, and did any of these items survive until later times, and/or play a role in Uytai’s history?

Covered above: no magic items lasted more than a century or so past the time of magical exploitation.

(I reserve the right to make exceptions for narrative reasons. But my intent has always been to limit actual magic.)

4. On Ȟamšan: The Historical Atlas of Arcél, specifically the city map, indicates that Ȟamšan does not have a writing system as of 3480; however, it has had a well-developed government bureaucracy and, presumably, a taxation and/or tribute system for most of a millennium at that point. The biography of Bruȟre indicates that government business was transacted orally, but was there some kind of tally system for keeping track of taxation, as well as market transactions? (There is a reference to Bruȟre buying houses, ships, and land.) I know that there are earthly examples of well-developed kingdoms and empires without a writing system, or a very limited one (the earliest Mesopotamian city-states; the Inca empire and its use of quipu; possibly some of the states of sub-Saharan Africa?), but I have only a limited knowledge of how they operated.

The Incas are the best earthly example-- they were highly organized without writing per se. (People are always trying to reinterpret quipu as writing, but the vast majority of quipu are well understood as numeric, and this is confirmed as they include subtotals and totals, like spreadsheets.)

5. Ktuvok technology: This is the question that actually stumps me more than the others. It is consistently stated that the ktuvoks in the ktuvok empires provided the humans that serve them with technology more advanced than that of the surrounding human populations (agriculture, domesticated animals, in the more advanced cases metallurgy); however, the ktuvoks have no use for most of these things themselves (for example, as carnivores, they have no need to grow crops, unless they do it to feed meat animals). How do the ktuvoks know these more advanced technologies to pass on.

The ktuvoks had no writing, so it's hard to say, at least until the iliu deign to open up more of their records. It's possible that the ktuvoks kept knowledge of certain rudimentary technology... but I'd also point out that the ktuvoks taught Neolithic technology to the nearby humans at a period when humans elsewhere (Eretald and Xengiman) already had that technology... and ktuvoks can swim enormous distances. So it's very possible they simply observed human states.

A related question: since a kutvok empire is divided into individual techyem with no central authority, how do they decide what technologies to teach their human subjects? Is there some kind of communication or consensus between ktuvoks, [...]

There's constant communication between ktuvoks... though also lots of factional conflict which can flare up into violence or war. One thing that goes over very very badly among ktuvoks is any faction's attempt to make itself much more powerful than others. So a faction that advanced only its only humans would very likely be opposed and destroyed by other factions.

Thank you for your prompt answers!

(If you've read Babblers, Beretos meets an iliu near a stream.)

And as I recall, the iliu is described as wearing a suit that covers its entire body, and its head is covered as well.

Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:53 pm

(If you've read Babblers, Beretos meets an iliu near a stream.)

And as I recall, the iliu is described as wearing a suit that covers its entire body, and its head is covered as well.

I'm afraid not; Lago is described as wearing a leather outfit and possibly a cap.

Interesting questions, and answers.

On the ktuvoks, technologies with which they can control humans have presumably become essential to their way of life – in a sense, ktuvoks are domesticators, and they must have a vested interest in maintaining and developing the tools of domestication.

Another way of looking at this question: are there still ktuvoks that live in the sea / in the swamps just hunting fish (and possibly iliu) all the time? Or is it practically universal to ktuvoks to live with human pets?

If the latter, it's not quite accurate to state that the ktuvoks have no need of these technologies. They are smart, and can presumably think up whatever they need to think up to make their offer to humans competitive. There are also, beyond the human models that zomp mentions, the elcar and iliu models of more advanced tech available for them to riff on.

I think it would be interesting to learn something about ktuvok lore one day. Perhaps they have oral or ritual traditions that encode and pass down their methods of controlling humans... (You can probably tell where my brain's going.)

Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:49 pm

1. In the description in Virtual Verduria regarding the composition of the Esčambra it states that “There are over a hundred petty barons or baronets (beomulî), which elect a subset of their number to the Esčambra” (16 in 3480). I have been wondering how the “baronets’ election” work: was there a formal election, did they all meet together, or was there a more informal consensus about who the “senior” baronets were? Also, are there any terrestrial parallels to an election of this kind? I can think of some cases that are somewhat similar, but no close parallel.

If I'm not misunderstanding the Wikipedia articles in question, then apparently, a part of the British House of Lords might be elected in a similar way today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... tary_peers

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:41 am If I'm not misunderstanding the Wikipedia articles in question, then apparently, a part of the British House of Lords might be elected in a similar way today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... tary_peers

The election of the Venetian Doge may be relevant.

"New regulations for the elections of the doge introduced in 1268 remained in force until the end of the republic in 1797. Their intention was to minimize the influence of individual great families, and this was effected by a complex electoral machinery. Thirty members of the Great Council, chosen by lot, were reduced by lot to nine; the nine chose forty and the forty were reduced by lot to twelve, who chose twenty-five. The twenty-five were reduced by lot to nine, and the nine elected forty-five. These forty-five were once more reduced by lot to eleven, and the eleven finally chose the forty-one who elected the doge."

It's the election of a single leader, but it definitely includes (multiple times) the idea of a body of voters being narrowed down.

sasasha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 3:53 am Another way of looking at this question: are there still ktuvoks that live in the sea / in the swamps just hunting fish (and possibly iliu) all the time? Or is it practically universal to ktuvoks to live with human pets?

Interesting question... it's probably near universal, simply because it's the ktuvok way to display status, and they can't reproduce without high status. But there's no coercion beyond that-- nothing prevents a ktuvok from living alone in the sea somewhere.

Note BTW that the ktuvok empires of the northern hemisphere are far less advanced. So they only seek a relative advantage over the local humans.

If the latter, it's not quite accurate to state that the ktuvoks have no need of these technologies.

It's probably more accurate to say that they have no ecological need for them. They don't need agriculture as they only eat seafood; they don't wear clothes; they (mostly) don't live in human cities. But this isn't to say they don't enjoy the luxuries a human civilization can provide. Alcohol, for instance. The structures they actually live in, in the wetlands, are built by humans. Inter-ktuvok wars use human weapons. They have human entertainers.

I think it would be interesting to learn something about ktuvok lore one day. Perhaps they have oral or ritual traditions that encode and pass down their methods of controlling humans... (You can probably tell where my brain's going.)

Most of this would be mother-to-child as that's the most important and longest-lasting ktuvok-ktuvok interaction.

Some further reactions to the above:

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:15 pm

1. I have been wondering how the “baronets’ election” work: was there a formal election, did they all meet together, or was there a more informal consensus about who the “senior” baronets were? Also, are there any terrestrial parallels to an election of this kind?

I expect they meet in Verduria-city. This might have been a burden for some baronets in the 3200s, but no one could serve in the Esčambra anyway if they couldn't reside in the city during its term .

That makes sense. I was aware of Alric’s later requirement that nobles have a residence in Verduria-city in order to serve in the Esčambra; I wasn’t sure if that applied to the baronets as well, but at least those living closer to the city may have had residences there by that point anyway.
The citations of the British house of Lords and the election of the Venetian Doge are also helpful; I remember reading that city councils in Medieval Europe tended to consist of the heads of leading families, essentially self-selected, who themselves chose who would fill any vacancies.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:09 pm

Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:53 pm

(If you've read Babblers, Beretos meets an iliu near a stream.)

And as I recall, the iliu is described as wearing a suit that covers its entire body, and its head is covered as well.

I'm afraid not; Lago is described as wearing a leather outfit and possibly a cap.

You are correct, of course. At the time that I read the book, what struck me was the fact that all of the illustrations that I had seen of the iliu portrayed them as naked (or nearly so), whereas when Lago appeared in Babblers, he was described as fully dressed.

The discussion of the ktuvoks was interesting as well; I don’t have much to add, other than that I appreciated what sasasha and Zomp had to say.

Instead for the baronets to gather in Verduria to select their representatives, an alternative would be a kind of constituency system, where the baronets of a province or otherwise defined region gather in a regional center to elect representatives; that would imply that each region would be entitled to send a certain number of baronets to the Eschambra. Those deputies would then have to reside in Verduria.