Zompist Bboard Again

A first post with some description of Ineru, since I made a translation of the North Wind and the Sun. Translation up top, notes below.

Ets Hafuru hal Ouga

Ets hafuru hal ouga seket toui jamaoe bao naralshi, lung touhashi nehetsu peshui goumi wa shei. Peshui touhashi nei hatsa mi hein chaero fan, duvan toui jama wa telvego lia nei narada. Gorein ets hafuru ebaei niae jam furuda, tang furu nei yazale peshui touhashi sao wa leira yazada, nin ets hafuru nei subuda. Gorein ouga faen puar seikuda, talao peshui touhashi jere nei hatsada. Golao nuotin ouga toui jamada, ets hafuru meja naragwadame.

Ets hafuru hal ouga seket toui jamaoe bao naralshi, lung touhashi nehetsu peshui goumi wa shei.

ets

north

hafuru

wind

hal

and

ouga

sun

se-ket

which-one.of.a.set

toui

more:ADV

jam-a-we

strong-ACT-INT.SUB

bao

against

nar-a-l-shi

say-ACT-IPFV-RECP

lung

thick

touhashi

coat

nehets-u

wear\PASS-PP

peshui

traveller

gou-mi

that-VIA

wa

COME

sh-e-i

go-PASS-MID

The North Wind and the Sun, "which one is stronger?" they were arguing, when
a traveller wearing a thick cloak passed that way.

Peshui touhashi nei hatsa mi hein chaero fan, duvan toui jama wa telvego lia nei narada.

peshui

traveller

touhashi

coat

nei

AWAY

hats-a

drape-ACT

m-i

do-GER

hein

first

chaer-o

win-AP

fan

who.REL

du-fan

other-person

toui

more:ADV

jam-a

strong-ACT

wa

COME

telv-e-go

know\PASS-PASS-COND

lia

paralell

nei

AWAY

nar-a-da

speak-ACT-PST

The one who could first make the traveller remove the cloak
would be recognised as stronger than the other
they agreed.

Gorein ets hafuru ebaei niae jam furuda, tang furu nei yazale peshui touhashi sao wa leira yazada, nin ets hafuru nei subuda.

gore-in

then-ABL

ets

north

hafuru

wind

e-bae-i

N-can-NMZ

niae

as:ADV

jam

strong

furu-da

blow:ACT-PST

tang

but

furu

blow

nei

AWAY

yaz-a-le

rise-ACT-IPFV

peshui

traveller

touhashi

coat

sao

around

wa

COME

leir-a

pull-ACT

yaz-a-da

rise-ACT-PST

nin

end:LOC

ets

north

hafuru

wind

nei

AWAY

subu-da

lose:ACT-PST

Then the north wind blew as hard as he could
but the stronger he blew, the closer the traveller pulled the cloak in
in the end, the north wind gave up.

Gorein ouga faen puar seikuda, talao peshui touhashi jere nei hatsada.

gore-in

then-ABL

ouga

sun

fae-in

above-ABL

puar

hot

seiku-da

shine:ACT-PST

ta-lao

PROX-because

peshui

traveller

touhashi

coat

jere

quick

nei

AWAY

hats-a-da

drape-ACT-PST

Then the sun shone down warmly
so the traveller quickly took off the cloak

Golao nuotin ouga toui jama, ets hafuru meja naragwadame.

go-lao

DIST-because

nuot-in

two:PRON-ABL

ouga

sun

toui

more:ADV

jam-a

strong-ACT

ets

north

hafuru

wind

meja

true

nar-a-gwah-da-me

say-ACT-must-PST-3.SUB

Therefore, of the two, the sun is stronger
the north wind had to confess.

---

Composition of some words not analysed in the gloss

(Because I don't have good glosses for so-called 'nominal prefixes')
Most verb roots are bound forms (with exceptions among stative verbs)
AP/PP = active/passive participle

hafuru 'wind'
ha- nominal prefix - weather, air, sky
fur verb root 'blow' (u-stem)
-u PP passive participle (without a clear agent, we would normally expect an additional middle voice suffix, but it's not present in this case)

touhashi 'coat'
to- nominal prefix - clothes, fabrics, furnishings
uhas~uhash verb root 'spread, cover'
-i NMZ theme vowel forming gerunds and nouns (other than agents or patients) when in combination with a nominal prefix

nahats- 'to clothe, get dressed'
na- prefix - sense undetermined
hats verb root 'drape, loosely cover with sth flexible'
>> passive nehets- 'wear, be clothed' (many verbs have a stative result sense in the passive)

peshui 'traveller'
pe- nominal prefix - land, large areas, long distance
sh verb root, light 'go, send'
-u PP passive participle
-i MID middle voice (as opposed to peshu 'envoy, one sent')

ebaei 'ability, capacity'
e- nominal prefix - sense undetermined
bae modal verb 'can, able to'
-i NMZ as above

Some multi-word senses

bao nar-...-shi 'argue' (speak against each other)

lia ... nar 'agree' (speak in alignment)

... yazale ... yazada - a "the more..., the more," construction on yaz- v. 'rise, increase'

Preverbal 'deictic' particles

I should post about the verb phrase more fully, but here is most of the functions of wa and nei. I haven't actually settled on these forms yet, and I'm not sure how to gloss them. These particles appear before the verb; prototypically, wa denotes inward deictic motion, nei outward deictic motion. This applies straightforwardly with simple motion verbs, but they gain different senses with other types of verb. Any suggestions for better glosses than COME and AWAY are welcome.

Motion: location as deictic centre

• shi 'cause change in location' - wa shi 'summon' - nei shi 'send'
• shei 'change location' - wa shei 'come' - nei shei 'go (out/away)' [shi in middle voice]
• ra 'carry, transport' - wa ra 'bring' - nei ra 'take (away)'

Ownership: possessor as deictic centre

• ga 'have, hold' - wa ga 'keep' - nei ga 'offer'
• ja 'transfer' - wa ja 'get' - nei ja 'give'

Location
Ineru doesn't have a generic location verb, but uses posture verbs (sit, stand, lie, hang). In the active voice, they have a 'putting' sense, with the subject causing the object to be in a place (with obligatory posture). In the middle voice, they have the gloss sense, with the subject being in the posture. So without further marking, the middle voice tends to a stative sense, while the active is usually dynamic. With posture verbs wa focalises a change in posture, while nei has the sense of 'to leave OBJ [somewhere]'.* For example, with sah- 'stand, be upright'

• active: saha 'put (upright)' - wa saha 'stand up, turn upright' - nei saha 'leave [at LOC]
• passive: sehe 'be stood' - wa sehe 'be stood up, turned upright' - nei sehe 'be left [at] (upright)'
• middle: sehei 'stand, be at (upright)' - wa sehei 'stand up' - ( nei sehei ...??)

*I'm not set on this, it could be more natural to have: wa sehei 'stand up' (neutral or conforming); nei sehei 'stand up' (disconforming, e.g. while others are sitting).

Controllability: With some verbs, such as perception, knowledge and success verbs, wa indicates an uncontrolled event, while nei indicates control by the agent, e.g.

• wa bura 'see' - nei bura 'look, watch'
• wa shona 'hear' - nei shona 'listen'
• talva 'know' - wa talva 'realise, learn' - nei talva 'study, investigate'
• (but passive wa telve 'become known'; in the text)
• subu 'lose, fail' - wa subu 'lose despite best effort, be unlucky' - nei subu 'give up, give in'

In the text, the verb hats- 'drape, cover' gives wa hatsa 'drape onto, put on (fabric)' and nei hatsa 'take off'. That aligns more with the motion verbs than the posture verbs, I feel.

At this point, I can't articulate the reasoning for every use of wa and nei in the text, some of it is intuitive. For example, why did they lia nei narada "agree away"? Maybe because the agreement doesn't itself resolve the narrative conflict? Maybe it's because it was a controlled event? Perhaps there isn't a default 'controlled' reading in phrasal senses. Things to ponder...

I noticed there seems to be a form of ablaut you didn't discuss, like saha -> sehe for stand/be stood and salva/selve for know/be known. How does this system work?

I am very impressed by this so far, and I really like the wa vs. nei distinction, but I do have some question.

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 27, 2025 5:48 am Controllability: With some verbs, such as perception, knowledge and success verbs, wa indicates control by the agent, while nei indicates an uncontrolled event, e.g.

• wa bura 'see' - nei bura 'look, watch'
• wa shona 'hear' - nei shona 'listen'
• talva 'know' - wa talva 'realise, learn' - nei talva 'study, investigate'
• (but passive wa telve 'become known'; in the text)
• subu 'lose, fail' - wa subu 'lose despite best effort, be unlucky' - nei subu 'give up, give in'

Maybe it's only my impression, but to me, these examples above seem reversed: it is the verbs with nei seem to demonstrate control, while the wa verbs seem uncontrolled. For instance, "look, watch" seems like a deliberate act requiring a voluntary decision on the part of the agent, while "see" is (or can be) an involuntary, uncontrolled, or passive act, and the same is true of the other pairs in the list (e.g., to take the last example, losing due to bad luck is beyond one's control, while giving up is a voluntary choice).

Glenn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:01 am I am very impressed by this so far, and I really like the wa vs. nei distinction, but I do have some question.

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 27, 2025 5:48 am Controllability: With some verbs, such as perception, knowledge and success verbs, wa indicates control by the agent, while nei indicates an uncontrolled event, e.g.

• wa bura 'see' - nei bura 'look, watch'
• wa shona 'hear' - nei shona 'listen'
• talva 'know' - wa talva 'realise, learn' - nei talva 'study, investigate'
• (but passive wa telve 'become known'; in the text)
• subu 'lose, fail' - wa subu 'lose despite best effort, be unlucky' - nei subu 'give up, give in'

Maybe it's only my impression, but to me, these examples above seem reversed: it is the verbs with nei seem to demonstrate control, while the wa verbs seem uncontrolled. For instance, "look, watch" seems like a deliberate act requiring a voluntary decision on the part of the agent, while "see" is (or can be) an involuntary, uncontrolled, or passive act, and the same is true of the other pairs in the list (e.g., to take the last example, losing due to bad luck is beyond one's control, while giving up is a voluntary choice).

I agree here -- in these examples nei seems to indicate control while wa seems involuntary, uncontrolled, or passive. I do like this distinction though.

Glenn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:01 am

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 27, 2025 5:48 am Controllability: With some verbs, such as perception, knowledge and success verbs, wa indicates control by the agent, while nei indicates an uncontrolled event, e.g.

• wa bura 'see' - nei bura 'look, watch'
• wa shona 'hear' - nei shona 'listen'
• talva 'know' - wa talva 'realise, learn' - nei talva 'study, investigate'
• (but passive wa telve 'become known'; in the text)
• subu 'lose, fail' - wa subu 'lose despite best effort, be unlucky' - nei subu 'give up, give in'

Maybe it's only my impression, but to me, these examples above seem reversed: it is the verbs with nei seem to demonstrate control, while the wa verbs seem uncontrolled. For instance, "look, watch" seems like a deliberate act requiring a voluntary decision on the part of the agent, while "see" is (or can be) an involuntary, uncontrolled, or passive act, and the same is true of the other pairs in the list (e.g., to take the last example, losing due to bad luck is beyond one's control, while giving up is a voluntary choice).

Aha, you and Travis are both correct - the error is in the sentence, and should be the other way round. I've corrected the post.

Control is a really cool feature that I don't see used in conlangs too often. Maybe check out Salish for inspiration?

Tsimaah wrote: ↑Tue Jul 29, 2025 9:38 am I noticed there seems to be a form of ablaut you didn't discuss, like saha -> sehe for stand/be stood and salva/selve for know/be known. How does this system work?

Yes, there is! Taking the active voice form of the root as the citation form, a vowel-raising ablaut produces the passive form.

Verb Root and Stem

The root, whether passive or active, is followed by a vowel suffix to form the stem. (Is 'theme vowel' an appropriate term?) The specific vowel suffix determines whether the resulting form will be predicate, participle, or gerund, and agrees for the passive/active voice distinction. A middle voice can also be constructed using the passive stem, but the middle voice suffix appears in the object slot of argument complex, and other material can intervene between it and the stem.

To illustrate the stem inflection, here's yaz- 'rise', with passive yez- 'be raised, be high'. Like the majority of roots, yaz- is an a-stem, taking -a in the active voice. i- and u-stems also exist, with some tweaks to the form of the suffix vowel in certain inflections.

grammatical role	voice	sfx	yaz-	rise, go up, increase
verbal (predicate)	active	-a	yaza	lift, raise
	passive	-e	yeze	be raised, high
	middle	-e...-i	yezei	rise
adnominal (participle)	active	-o	yazo	who raises (who rises?)
	passive	-u	yezu	raised, high
nominal (gerund)	n/a(?)	i	yazi	rising, raising

Passive gerunds? I'm undecided. (Also undecided about how much of the predicate inflectional material to allow on non-predicate forms)

Passive Ablaut

It would be best to write up some phonology before describing the ablaut, but never mind that, here's the basic raising chain:

Front vowels: a > e > i > ae > ei* > ia
Back vowels: a > o > u > ao > ou* > ua

Whether /a/ ablauts to /e/ or /o/ is lexically determined.
*Before CC, ae > ea; ao > oa

The native script and roman orthography don't show the phonemic forms, where diphthongs are vowel-glide sequences, and glides are inserted into vowel sequences. For example, ae is phonemically /aj/, ea is phonemically /eja/. Vowels undergo ablaut, while glides are unaffected, but /i u/ are raised to /j w/ and the resulting sequences are resolved, in the simple cases by inserting /a/. I'm still teasing out whether and how to apply other strategies in longer sequences of vowels, to find that complexity sweet spot and a satisfying aesthetic.

Examples of ablaut in predicate verbs:

active	passive
yaza	yeze	raise / be raised
meru	mire	sing / be sung
jina	jaene	think / be thought
chaeri	cheire	win / be won
leira	liare	pull / be pulled
orama	urome	eat / be eaten
sora	sure	open / be open
bura	baore	see / be seen
shaoja	shouje	worship / be worshipped
gouma	guame	cause to meet / meet
zuon	zaoune	close / be closed
hruanga	hruonge	mix / be mixed

I reworked the pronouns today, see if I can get that written up soon.

Skookum wrote: ↑Wed Aug 13, 2025 5:03 pm Control is a really cool feature that I don't see used in conlangs too often. Maybe check out Salish for inspiration?

Thanks for the tip! I'm still very unfamiliar with languages of the Americas, so it's helpful to have a place to start looking.