Zompist Bboard Again

Doesn't it look sinister to Christians that they have committed genocide so often while worshipping a killed man?

Well, those Christians who are in favor of or in denial about the genocides in question probably won't accept the claim that they or their predecessors committed any genocides, and those Christians who oppose those genocides might well use "No True Scotsman" arguments.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Oct 06, 2025 6:40 am Well, those Christians who are in favor of or in denial about the genocides in question probably won't accept the claim that they or their predecessors committed any genocides, and those Christians who oppose those genocides might well use "No True Scotsman" arguments.

The Reluctant Theologian podcast mentioned that traditionally, the Book of Joshua was only read allegorically. The problem is that the book doesn't sound like an allegory if you read it without specialized expertise: https://www.youtube.com/live/IcTmBDvuzdQ

Edit: The podcast episode might have been this one: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0zG26b ... Y1lw5bPX9g Not sure.

far be it from me to defend christianity, but... what, exactly, is the contradiction between commiting genocide and worshipping a man who was killed? I don't think they worship jesus because he was killed, or because killing people is wrong: they don't worship everyone who's killed... they worship him cause in the story he's god, you know?

of course, genocide is bad. but you can believe that it is good and worship jesus. indeed, the bible itself justifies it at least sometimes.

Torco wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 8:14 am far be it from me to defend christianity, but... what, exactly, is the contradiction between commiting genocide and worshipping a man who was killed? I don't think they worship jesus because he was killed, or because killing people is wrong: they don't worship everyone who's killed... they worship him cause in the story he's god, you know?

of course, genocide is bad. but you can believe that it is good and worship jesus. indeed, the bible itself justifies it at least sometimes.

I'm not saying it's a contradiction. I'm saying it's thematically compatible. What's sinister is having a killed man as a totem.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 12:12 pm What's sinister is having a killed man as a totem.

Are there any major religions or secular political philosophies that don't, at least to some extent, venerate various martyrs?

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 4:56 pm Are there any major religions or secular political philosophies that don't, at least to some extent, venerate various martyrs?

Almost all. Very few actually worship a killed man. Islam has a crescent. Judaism has a star. The only other potential corpse I know of is the Aztec god, Our Lord the Flayed One.

so...what does this thread have to do with terrorism?

I'd be willing to bet money that the IRA, the Shining Path, and even ETA never used "we are Christian" for the reason why they committed some of their more extreme actions.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 6:09 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 4:56 pm Are there any major religions or secular political philosophies that don't, at least to some extent, venerate various martyrs?

Almost all. Very few actually worship a killed man. Islam has a crescent. Judaism has a star.

*blinks*
are you saying that Muslims worship the moon? thats straight-up Jack Chick levels of falsehood.

The only other potential corpse I know of is the Aztec god, Our Lord the Flayed One.

you're forgetting The Hero Twins of Classical Maya belief. they were slain, then became some fruits which were eaten by maidens, and said maidens then became pregnant from the fruits & gave birth to the Hero Twins.

meanwhiles, Odin was crucified, and Baldur (who is supposed to rule after Odin's death) was dead.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:57 pm *blinks*
are you saying that Muslims worship the moon? thats straight-up Jack Chick levels of falsehood.

I'm speaking at a thematic level. Christians only worship "a killed man" at a high level of generality. Islam uses the crescent as a totem. This kind of analysis is not dubiously modern. In medieval times, some theologians argued that Christianity is a Solar religion, Islam is a Venerean religion and Judaism is a Saturnine religion based on the days of worship. Other analyses said Christianity is a Hermaean religion because Jesus is the Word, etc. None of this necessarily implied that these religions are pagan. This is the kind of analysis you get from idealism, where you are restricted to symbols and what they mean.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:57 pm you're forgetting The Hero Twins of Classical Maya belief. they were slain, then became some fruits which were eaten by maidens, and said maidens then became pregnant from the fruits & gave birth to the Hero Twins.

meanwhiles, Odin was crucified, and Baldur (who is supposed to rule after Odin's death) was dead.

If you include gods and heros who came back to life after visiting the world of the dead, there are a lot of them, right? Didn't Inanna visit the Dark City? I don't know if any of the gods you mentioned directly looked like a corpse when worshipped. In some images of Kali, Shiva lies slain at her feet, but that's not an image by which Shiva is worshipped, except indirectly. Chhinnamasta looks beheaded, but unlike Christ on the cross, not exactly dead. It's more like an image of creative destruction than being at one's lowest.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:21 am

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:57 pm you're forgetting The Hero Twins of Classical Maya belief. they were slain, then became some fruits which were eaten by maidens, and said maidens then became pregnant from the fruits & gave birth to the Hero Twins.

meanwhiles, Odin was crucified, and Baldur (who is supposed to rule after Odin's death) was dead.

I don't know if any of the gods you mentioned directly looked like a corpse when worshipped.

by that logic, you can't include Jesus in the category either.

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:27 am by that logic, you can't include Jesus in the category either.

Christ on the cross looks dead, at least from an outsider's point of view. He's wounded and crucified. His eyes are closed. There is a lot of speculation in esoteric Judaism about having to reach the lowest point in order to deserve the highest station, though I don't know if any of those thoughts were current at the time of Jesus. Compare that to Osiris, for example, who died, but whose body is green with regrowth.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:31 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:27 am by that logic, you can't include Jesus in the category either.

Christ on the cross looks dead, at least from an outsider's point of view. He's wounded and crucified. His eyes are closed. There is a lot of speculation in esoteric Judaism about having to reach the lowest point in order to deserve the highest station, though I don't know if any of those thoughts were current at the time of Jesus. Compare that to Osiris, for example, who died, but whose body is green with regrowth.

I think you're on the verge of discovering comparative mythology, which is a black hole that can swallow you up forever, but... one, Christ on the cross is probably just suffering, the whole idea is that his suffering and death is God's sacrifice to appease God's sense of justice. (Which is weird for an outsider, especially since Islam just comes up with a different story: God can just forgive you, he's God. The Christian story can either be spun as "God is wonderfully forgiving, you're lucky" or "God is terribly exacting, you sinner.")

Also, gods die all over. Baldr dies, Osiris dies, Inanna dies, Ba'al dies, Persephone dies. Buddha is depicted and venerated at the moment of parinirvana (i.e. death), every incarnation of Vishnu has to die. The Norse gods all die, succeeded by their children.

But under dualism, death is just an episode. While dead, Jesus visited Hell and freed all the virtuous pagans. (Not Biblical, but well established in Catholicism.)

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:31 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:27 am by that logic, you can't include Jesus in the category either.

Christ on the cross looks dead, at least from an outsider's point of view. He's wounded and crucified. His eyes are closed.

I'm so tempted to quote from the Dead Parrot Sketch.

Compare that to Osiris, for example, who died, but whose body is green with regrowth.

um...if we're going by outsider views...Osiris (er, i mean ;sir the neteru) is green. the green is not regrowth, as it is life, but outsiders wouldn't de facto know that.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:10 am Also, gods die all over. Baldr dies, Osiris dies, Inanna dies, Ba'al dies, Persephone dies.

o.0
wait, when did She die? either Inanna or Persephone - I wasn't aware of either of them having a death....granted, the same is true for Anat and Raat, but thats another matter.

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:35 am

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:10 am Also, gods die all over. Baldr dies, Osiris dies, Inanna dies, Ba'al dies, Persephone dies.

o.0
wait, when did She die? either Inanna or Persephone - I wasn't aware of either of them having a death....granted, the same is true for Anat and Raat, but thats another matter.

Inanna dies on her trip to the Underworld. She gets put back together again.

Persephone, maybe it's a matter of interpretation. It's hard to read the Descent of Inanna and not conclude that Persephone is a version of that story. Note that Demeter acts as if she's dead, causing a crisis. (This was the basis for several of the mystery cults.)

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 6:09 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 4:56 pm Are there any major religions or secular political philosophies that don't, at least to some extent, venerate various martyrs?

Almost all. Very few actually worship a killed man. Islam has a crescent. Judaism has a star. The only other potential corpse I know of is the Aztec god, Our Lord the Flayed One.

Neither Islam or Judaism are big on symbols. The crescent or the star of David have nowhere near the significance the cross has. I'd say both focus on language instead: the written and spoken word.

As for Mesoamerican gods, it's not just Xipe Totec. Gods sacrifice themselves and get reborn all the time, because that's the way the universe works in Mesoamerican thought.

Christian imagery can get pretty sinister, even more so when it comes to Catholicism. The shock factor is a good way to get people to pay attention and helps convey relatively complex theology. I don't think other religions are really above it either. I think several strands of Buddhism have gruesome depictions of hell.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:10 am I think you're on the verge of discovering comparative mythology, which is a black hole that can swallow you up forever, but... one, Christ on the cross is probably just suffering, the whole idea is that his suffering and death is God's sacrifice to appease God's sense of justice. (Which is weird for an outsider, especially since Islam just comes up with a different story: God can just forgive you, he's God. The Christian story can either be spun as "God is wonderfully forgiving, you're lucky" or "God is terribly exacting, you sinner.")

Ok. In that case, Jesus has to be dead in the images of Mary cradling Christ's crucified body, right?

Besides, since the world is only redeemed by Christ's death according to Christianity, doesn't that imply Christians worship a killed man? Compare that with Our Lord the Flayed One, whose flaying symbolizes casting off the old or something.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:10 am Also, gods die all over. Baldr dies, Osiris dies, Inanna dies, Ba'al dies, Persephone dies. Buddha is depicted and venerated at the moment of parinirvana (i.e. death), every incarnation of Vishnu has to die. The Norse gods all die, succeeded by their children.

Do you know if any of these religions worship a corpse totem?

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:35 am um...if we're going by outsider views...Osiris (er, i mean ;sir the neteru) is green. the green is not regrowth, as it is life, but outsiders wouldn't de facto know that.

1. Does Osiris look dead to you?

2. I think interpreting life as "regrowth" is fully compatible with his story, which is oddly similar to that of Lemminkäinen, arguably the most exciting chapter of the Kalevala: https://sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune15.htm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 3:24 am As for Mesoamerican gods, it's not just Xipe Totec. Gods sacrifice themselves and get reborn all the time, because that's the way the universe works in Mesoamerican thought.

Do any of them look like a corpse?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 3:28 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 3:24 am As for Mesoamerican gods, it's not just Xipe Totec. Gods sacrifice themselves and get reborn all the time, because that's the way the universe works in Mesoamerican thought.

Do any of them look like a corpse?

Not that I know of, but honestly I find Mesoamericans depictions of god baffling. It takes some time to learn to interpret them.

There are depictions of dead Christ, of course, but I agree with zompist that the traditional depiction of Christ on the cross is probably in agony but not dead.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 3:34 am Not that I know of, but honestly I find Mesoamericans depictions of god baffling. It takes some time to learn to interpret them.

https://pudding.cool/2022/06/aztec-gods/

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 3:34 am There are depictions of dead Christ, of course, but I agree with zompist that the traditional depiction of Christ on the cross is probably in agony but not dead.

Traditional depictions of Jesus are a few scenes repeating over and over. In at least one of them, Jesus is dead. In the most common one, he looks dead. I'm not making a deep theological point. All I'm asking is, don't any Christians think it looks sinister they they have committed so many genocides while having a totem that looks like a corpse, at least until you study the religion in more detail?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 3:47 am Traditional depictions of Jesus are a few scenes repeating over and over. In at least one of them, Jesus is dead. In the most common one, he looks dead. I'm not making a deep theological point. All I'm asking is, don't any Christians think it looks sinister they they have committed so many genocides while having a totem that looks like a corpse, at least until you study the religion in more detail?

I'm familiar with Christianity, especially Catholicism, but really not a believer. I'd expect actual believers will have better insight.

Christians have denounced atrocities committed in the name of Christianity, yes, and parallels to Jesus' sacrifice have been drawn.
But of course Christians don't feel Christian imagery is 'sinister', or if they do, it's some other denomination they denounce. (Protestants have objected to Catholicism on those grounds, but of course Catholics will disagree.)

I don't think it really shatters Christianity (and I say this as an atheist myself): given the doctrine of original sin, I think Christians are likely to kind of expect human beings to be terrible sinners. (I think as an atheist I have a more optimistic view of human nature, really.)

Then again, you'll find no shortage of conservative Christians who feel the Crusade or the conquest of Mexico are entirely admirable feats. How they reconcile all of this in their brains, I really don't know, but you can always check JD Vance's nonsense about ordo amoris.
(I guess you can interpret 'love thy neighbour' as 'love thy neighbour only if he's exactly like yourself'?)