Zompist Bboard Again

Idk if this topic could've possibly been brought up before, but whatever. I'm a big enjoyer of alternate history scenarios and aposteriori conlangs (I mean, my two more or less big works are aposteriori althistory conlangs). And I'm not alone in this sphere. Aposteriori conlangs overall often tend to get associated with alt history often (because that is usually a very logical context for the worldbuilding associated with a conlang made from a natlang basis), though not necessarily.
And, well, there are some "tropes" in this sphere at this point, with varied languages created by multiple people, such as surviving forms of African/British Romance, Gothic and Continental Celtic. However, then there are others that seem far less explored by the community overall, such as surviving (non-Latin) Italic (aside from my own work, I think I've just seen a couple Oscan conlangs on the internet and that's it), or, basically, most things not Indo-European.
While I don't think I'd be able to muster more than a couple conlangs at a time myself (I tried that before), I think there can be a neat place to share ideas on the subject of alternate history aposteriori langs and possibly see them implemented by someone, or someone getting inspired from them. So, anyone interested in the topic can drop their thoughts here.

Indo-Greek

Indo-Greek is basically obvious: a Hellenic language spoken in South Asia. Historically, during the Hellenistic period, Greek speakers ended up in places as distant from their homeland as Bactria and Punjab, and in fact Indo-Greek states AFAIK were the longest-surviving Hellenistic states, with the ones to the west being gradually overtaken by Romans and/or Parthians or vanishing for other reasons. I don't think it'd be impossible for some forms of Greek to survive there in alternate history context, and it will probably become fascinatingly divergent.
Hellenic branch overall is rather underdone in conlanging compared to other IE branches (or, at least, I haven't seen many Hellenic conlangs) and I don't recall anyone ever making an Indo-Greek one. Thinking on what features it would probably have, it very much depends on the exact location (South Asia is HUGE and DIVERSE). I guess the very expected ones are the sprachbund features, like retroflex consonants and aspiration (possibly Ancient Greek pʰ tʰ kʰ will not fricatize?)...
Overall a fascinating idea to explore.

That reminds me of an idea from someone I know elsewhere: a ‘reverse Romani’, i.e. a Latin-descended language spoken in India (whereas Romani is an Indic language spoken in Europe).

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 6:27 am That reminds me of an idea from someone I know elsewhere: a ‘reverse Romani’, i.e. a Latin-descended language spoken in India (whereas Romani is an Indic language spoken in Europe).

In this context, it's an interesting coincidence that Romani is called "Romani" in the first place.

My abandoned main project, Old Albic, was an IE language related to Hittite, though not part of Anatolian proper, spoken in Bronze Age Britain. Alas, it failed to work out, and I have abandoned it, though chiefly for other reasons.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:15 am My abandoned main project, Old Albic, was an IE language related to Hittite, though not part of Anatolian proper, spoken in Bronze Age Britain. Alas, it failed to work out, and I have abandoned it, though chiefly for other reasons.

Wait, have you abandoned your Elves in general?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:23 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:15 am My abandoned main project, Old Albic, was an IE language related to Hittite, though not part of Anatolian proper, spoken in Bronze Age Britain. Alas, it failed to work out, and I have abandoned it, though chiefly for other reasons.

Wait, have you abandoned your Elves in general?

Yep. I have realized that they just don't make sense, were wishful thinking, and were historically implausible. While we do not know much about pre-Celtic Britain and Ireland, we do know that it was a place wracked by constant tribal warfare and worship of deities that demanded huge amounts of human sacrifices. Also, the language did not make sense linguistically. There is no plausible way an Indo-European language could evolve into what I had in mind. It would have been doable with a Kartvelian language, but not with an Indo-European one; but the idea of having a Kartvelian language in prehistoric Britain would of course be utterly crazy as well.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 6:27 am That reminds me of an idea from someone I know elsewhere: a ‘reverse Romani’, i.e. a Latin-descended language spoken in India (whereas Romani is an Indic language spoken in Europe).

Indo-Latin sounds neat as well.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:15 am My abandoned main project, Old Albic, was an IE language related to Hittite, though not part of Anatolian proper, spoken in Bronze Age Britain. Alas, it failed to work out, and I have abandoned it, though chiefly for other reasons.

That reminded me of my currently abandoned (but I may return to them!) works on conlangs situated in Anatolia (though neither of them is of Anatolian branch in classification).

One is an unfinished project of surviving Phrygian.
Interpreted as a close cousin to Greek (Greco-Phrygian hypothesis and so on), with two major forms: liturgical, used only by the priesthood (very archaic, think Ecclesiastical Latin/Church Slavonic/Classical Arabic compared to their vernacular relatives) and, well, vernacular. Never went far.

Another is surviving Galatian. Not much to say except it lost grammatical gender and animacy traces, went greatly analytical in its verb system, only had 2-3 (dialect variation) cases but retained the dual, had Turkish-like orthography and no consonant mutations/VSO word order.

Currently unlikely to go back to either of those soon because Fevornian satisfies my Balkan sprachbund (or adjacent, which Anatolia is) Indo-European conlang needs, lol.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:56 am There is no plausible way an Indo-European language could evolve into what I had in mind. It would have been doable with a Kartvelian language, but not with an Indo-European one; but the idea of having a Kartvelian language in prehistoric Britain would of course be utterly crazy as well.

Why not?
Also, Kartvelian in Britain would have been cool, lol.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:56 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:23 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:15 am My abandoned main project, Old Albic, was an IE language related to Hittite, though not part of Anatolian proper, spoken in Bronze Age Britain. Alas, it failed to work out, and I have abandoned it, though chiefly for other reasons.

Wait, have you abandoned your Elves in general?

Yep. I have realized that they just don't make sense, were wishful thinking, and were historically implausible. While we do not know much about pre-Celtic Britain and Ireland, we do know that it was a place wracked by constant tribal warfare and worship of deities that demanded huge amounts of human sacrifices. Also, the language did not make sense linguistically. There is no plausible way an Indo-European language could evolve into what I had in mind. It would have been doable with a Kartvelian language, but not with an Indo-European one; but the idea of having a Kartvelian language in prehistoric Britain would of course be utterly crazy as well.

I’m really surprised to hear this. I feel like just a couple of days ago you were talking about them as normal?

Some Balto-Slavic things

Balto-Slavic is that one branch of Indo-European with a messyinternal classification; while Slavic is rather solidly defined "clade", Baltic is a lot more complicated, largely because of the fact so many Baltic languages are extinct and poorly attested, and the whole area of likely Baltic/para-Baltic speakers (roughly from Szczecin to Moscow) has been reduced to two small countries adjacent to each other (Lithuania and Latvia) with relatively closely related forms of language.

I've heard many hypotheses on Balto-Slavic internal classification, from a simple two-way distinction (Slavic and Baltic) to three-way distinction (Slavic, East Baltic and West Baltic) to Slavic being within Baltic, having developed from a peripheral innovative dialect in the southwestern part of the range. Really don't know what to think on all of this; while modern languages are easily classifiable into (all branches of Slavic) and (Latvian+Lithuanian) clades, the extinct ones are where it gets much harder.

Proto-Slavic is also known to have a rapid expansion from a seemingly small area, and remained as a dialect continuum for a long while (Southern Slavic and Northern Slavic still are dialect continuums), thus many innovations have spread throughout all of it.

Oh, and then there's this whole hypothesis on Balto-Slavic and Dacian/Thracian connections...

Being a speaker of one Balto-Slavic language and having tried to learn one more before, I'm definitely someone who got ideas on this (and even attempted to flesh out some before).

1. Moscow Baltic/Galindian
Roughly in the area of present-day Moscow, a Baltic language was spoken, likely surviving well into the Middle Ages, by a tribe known as Goliad (Galindians). Likely the last survivor of the whole pre-Slavic Baltic dialect continuum in present-day East Slavic-speaking territory, with unclear ties to either Latvian+Lithuanian or Prussian. A Galindian conlang would be neat, with any alternate history associated, either with no Slavic migration into this area altogether (and possible preservation of pre-Slavic Baltic dialect continuum?), Galindian surviving as a minority language, or anything else.

2. Archaic Slavic language
As mentioned before, Proto-Slavic at the moment of its collapse had already became rather innovative, and in fact lots of features have spread even after the split of the proto-language (like the animacy system). However, a conlang inspired by archaic Proto-Slavic/"pre-Proto-Slavic but closer to that than to Lithuanian+Latvian or Prussian" form would be neat.

3. Modern Prussian
Well, surviving descendant of Old Prussian; it does already exist I think and there are even attempts of revival, if I'm not wrong.

þeprussianfrog wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:16 am while modern languages are easily classifiable into (East Slavic+South Slavic+West Slavic)

This is the conventional classification, but the only of these groups that actually shares several common innovations is East Slavic; West Slavic only shares one (*tj,*kt _ i / *dj -> t_s / (d_)z) - the other isoglosses are common retentions (/k/g/ before /v/ not being palatalized and *-dl- not being simplified to /-l-/); South Slavic doesn't have any common and exclusive innovations at all - the innovatiuons all South Slavic languages have in common they share with Czech and Slovak. South Slavic is a residual group, consisting of all languages that are neither East nor South Slavic, but they don't form a genetic clade.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:40 am *tj,*kt _ i / *dj -> t_s / (d_)z

I can’t work out this notation…

South Slavic is a residual group, consisting of all languages that are neither East nor South Slavic

You mean neither East nor West Slavic?

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:46 am You mean neither East nor West Slavic?

Yes, sorry.

Slavic ideas

Some more Balto-Slavic ideas, but ones more specifically associated with Slavic after Proto-Slavic split, that got the innovations and firmly belong on the continuum.

1. Novgorodian
Novgorod/Northern Russia in the Medieval period had its own, rather distinct, development of Proto-(East) Slavic with unique forms different from those of "Old East Slavic proper" dialect continuum, which was gradually displaced by southern dialects after Novgorod was conquered by Moscow, although Northern Russian dialects retained a varied degree of Novgorodian influence. Alternate history where the Novgorodian Republic (or any other states speaking primarily a close dialect) unites Russia/survives as an independent state from Moscow/is still conquered, but Novgorodian language survives to a greater degree is a neat concept I think. Gonna have a Slavic language with a nom.sg. of o-stem masculines being -e :p

2. Slavic in England (and Slavicized Anglo-Saxon)
Basically, instead of Normans (and possibly even the Norse/Danes), Slavs invade the Anglo-Saxon England and become the ruling elite at some point, thus we get modern English with Slavic (rather than Romance and North Germanic) influences and possibly a Slavic language spoken somewhere in the British Isles.
(Would be especially neat if we got at least some Old English forms, perhaps those in Northwest England/Southwest Scotland, influenced BOTH by the Slavic and the Goidelic Celtic languages, will gain phonetic palatalization.)
A somewhat different thing would be having Slavs migrate into England instead of Anglo-Saxons. Celtic-Slavic mutual influence would be of interest, for sure.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 8:49 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:56 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:23 am

Wait, have you abandoned your Elves in general?

Yep. I have realized that they just don't make sense, were wishful thinking, and were historically implausible. While we do not know much about pre-Celtic Britain and Ireland, we do know that it was a place wracked by constant tribal warfare and worship of deities that demanded huge amounts of human sacrifices. Also, the language did not make sense linguistically. There is no plausible way an Indo-European language could evolve into what I had in mind. It would have been doable with a Kartvelian language, but not with an Indo-European one; but the idea of having a Kartvelian language in prehistoric Britain would of course be utterly crazy as well.

I’m really surprised to hear this. I feel like just a couple of days ago you were talking about them as normal?

It has to do more with my mood swings than with internal plausibility issues. I have had a very bad day today (but I am already recovering now, though I need a quiet weekend to get into balance again). The Elven civilization stretches the limits of the historically plausible (which it would do in any place of the world), though it actually makes some things make sense. And as for the language, the Proto-Hesperic language of the Bell Beaker people from which Old Albic descends may have been influenced by a Para-Kartvelian substratum spoken by the Neolithic farmers of Central Europe, who seem to have been genetically similar to modern Georgians, so a Para-Kartvelian language (or one just typologically similar to Kartvelian) in Neolithic Central Europe is not entirely implausible.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:40 am

þeprussianfrog wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:16 am while modern languages are easily classifiable into (East Slavic+South Slavic+West Slavic)

This is the conventional classification, but the only of these groups that actually shares several common innovations is East Slavic; West Slavic only shares one (*tj,*kt _ i / *dj -> t_s / (d_)z) - the other isoglosses are common retentions (/k/g/ before /v/ not being palatalized and *-dl- not being simplified to /-l-/); South Slavic doesn't have any common and exclusive innovations at all - the innovatiuons all South Slavic languages have in common they share with Czech and Slovak. South Slavic is a residual group, consisting of all languages that are neither East nor South Slavic, but they don't form a genetic clade.

Well, true. I just used the conventional classificaiton for simplicity. But yeah, I guess (East Slavic+Lechitic+Sorbian+Czech-Slovak+Whatever is going on in the Balkans) is a better way to put it XD
Or I guess we could just bring in a Czech-Slovenian branch at this point lol

þeprussianfrog wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:16 am 1. Moscow Baltic/Galindian

Have had the idea, too, but I must not spread myself too thinly over too many projects.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 10:00 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 8:49 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 7:56 am

Yep. I have realized that they just don't make sense, were wishful thinking, and were historically implausible. While we do not know much about pre-Celtic Britain and Ireland, we do know that it was a place wracked by constant tribal warfare and worship of deities that demanded huge amounts of human sacrifices. Also, the language did not make sense linguistically. There is no plausible way an Indo-European language could evolve into what I had in mind. It would have been doable with a Kartvelian language, but not with an Indo-European one; but the idea of having a Kartvelian language in prehistoric Britain would of course be utterly crazy as well.

I’m really surprised to hear this. I feel like just a couple of days ago you were talking about them as normal?

It has to do more with my mood swings than with internal plausibility issues. I have had a very bad day today (but I am already recovering now, though I need a quiet weekend to get into balance again). The Elven civilization stretches the limits of the historically plausible (which it would do in any place of the world), though it actually makes some things make sense. And as for the language, the Proto-Hesperic language of the Bell Beaker people from which Old Albic descends may have been influenced by a Para-Kartvelian substratum spoken by the Neolithic farmers of Central Europe, who seem to have been genetically similar to modern Georgians, so a Para-Kartvelian language (or one just typologically similar to Kartvelian) in Neolithic Central Europe is not entirely implausible.

What is so unique about their civilization?

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 10:01 am

þeprussianfrog wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2026 9:16 am 1. Moscow Baltic/Galindian

Have had the idea, too, but I must not spread myself too thinly over too many projects.

Maybe I'll get to it eventually XD