Zompist Bboard Again

For a long time, I wanted to make a writing system, where orthography would depend on the position of the celestial bodies. The writing system (and a language, which uses it) is intended for a role-playing game, where the players may try to tease some extra hints out of the in-game texts, written in the language. So, I would be very thankful for an opinion on the system.

To understand the logic behind this script (let's call it the cursive) you need to understand how to write the proto-script (the runes). The system is actually quite straightforward. It is a featural syllabary, somewhat like Hangul. To start, you take a square subdivided into four smaller square. The centre of the square is assumed to represent the Moon, which is called E in the language (the exact vowels are unimportant, so I don't give IPA). Then, you determine which corner of the big square points towards the Sun, and which points toward the Earth (when on Earth, imagine the solar system as if you are floating above one of the poles of the Moon). The corner of the Sun then stands for the A vowel, the corner on the opposite side from it stands for the I vowel, the corner of the Earth is an U and the last remaining corner is an O. Then, you start filling the corners by drawing the glyphs from the figure, and an example of the whole process is shown in figure 1. Now, as long as the Moon, the Sun and the Earth are not lined up, you can practice your magical writing (of course it's magical). There are, of course, other possible syllable shapes, which I do not show in the figures, but they are not important right now.
Based on these runes, a cursive script was developed by practitioners of magic. [spoiler]It's a maho-shoujo game, so - witches, basically.[/spoiler] The way it happened was by clamping together common groupings of symbols, and ironically it ended up in creating a system of about 150 glyphs, but at least it helped to prevent the uninitiated from reading any confidential records, which may be handy, if you are a witch. Anyway, the cursive script uses four groups of glyphs for each consonant:

1 CV glyphs
2 VC glyphs
3 Glyphs for a simple coda
4 Glyphs for the complex coda (max coda is CN)
(A [ts] group is given as an example, fig. 3; there are also the vowel signs there).
The vowel is determined by the squares on the runic script grid, each square is numbered and has a glyph in rows 1-3 corresponding to it (numbering goes right to left, just like the direction of the writing). So, if u is the 2nd vowel, tsuts will be spelled as glyph 1.2 + glyph 3.2. The fifth glyph in rows 1 and 2 is the E glyph, and if a third row glyph is required (like in a 'tets' syllable), it takes glyph 3.1. The stand alone vowel signs are numbered in the same fashion.

Finally, I give the same phrase written during two different planetary arrangements, as well as the full script for anyone interested. Please, pardon my handwriting.

And the whole scrip (subject to change).

PS
Some of the T glyphs look very familiar, but I can't remember where I've seen them.

Looks good.

Dansoo: Thank-you for your post.

Very nice. Were you inspired by the cipher code in the 2006 movie "Prestige"? There was a cipher in there that changed with the date or something.

I also have been doing this simple P T K grid thing with my conscripts the last few years and posting it to my facebook group "Hieroglyphic Conlangs" among other places. Only I line the outside of my syllabary with the phonemic values, not the inside.

"Is your script insane enough or too insane?" By "insane" I take it to mean something like "amazing in its complexity"? I see language invention as scientific experimentation. I consider myself an amateur scientist of languages. So you can do whatever you want with conlanging, naturalistic or unnaturalistic, and it's fine by me. I do have my own tastes regarding conlangs but when I voice them, they're generally not well received. But regarding this unique conscript, I do very complex conscripts, so I'd rather just voice appreciation and encouragement.

Does the interior of the "reverse syllabary" contain all of the language's phonemes? Are any phonemes derived from the addition of small letters or signs, as in Japanese te > de? Your post is already so lengthy, please do not feel obliged to respond to this question. It occured to me and I thought you might like a question. Of course, I read your entire article in earnest but am merely trying to make conversation since the one of the major purposes of the message boards (or facebook) is just to make conversation regarding specific, perhaps obscure, topics.

(My use of the smilies in this article was just for fun since I never say anyone make much use of them before and we don't have them on facebook. The ones without eyes look funny.)

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:45 amLooks good.

Thank you.

Bob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 am Were you inspired by the cipher code in the 2006 movie "Prestige"?

Haven't seen the movie. If there was a specific point of inspiration, that would be the moment from Solaris, when the protagonist thinks he may be asleep, and reads the same list several times to see if any of the words would change. That made me realize that texts do tend to behave funny in dreams, and since this language was originally intended for moon spirits, with whom lunatics commune as their souls are transported to the Moon while they are asleep, I thought a changing script would be a good way to capture the feeling of trying to read something in a dream.

Bob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 am By "insane" I take it to mean something like "amazing in its complexity"?

I meant that I want my script to balance needless complexity with elegance of construction, and I'm afraid that I can be a bit biased in this regard. Not only because it's my script, but also because I know the underlying rules and ways to read this script without knowing the position of the planets when a particular record was made. (It's quite obvious, actually).

Bob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 am Does the interior of the "reverse syllabary" contain all of the language's phonemes?

Yes, plus there are also the 5 standard vowels (a i e o u). It's a significant downscaling from the previous version of the language, but I find small phonemic inventories to be much more manageable in terms of control over the overall sound of the language.

Bob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 am
Are any phonemes derived from the addition of small letters or signs, as in Japanese te > de?

Not at this point, but I suppose if I want to transliterate something using this script, I may derive a voicing sign from one of the N-glyphs, as the only voiced consonants this language has appear in this position: N_V.

Oh, and thank you for the detailed response.

dansoo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:18 am For a long time, I wanted to make a writing system, where orthography would depend on the position of the celestial bodies.

Absolutely awesome idea.

dansoo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:18 am (the exact vowels are unimportant, so I don't give IPA).

Please do anyway, you've made me curious.

dansoo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:18 am Then, you determine which corner of the big square points towards the Sun, and which points toward the Earth (when on Earth, imagine the solar system as if you are floating above one of the poles of the Moon). The corner of the Sun then stands for the A vowel, the corner on the opposite side from it stands for the I vowel, the corner of the Earth is an U and the last remaining corner is an O.

That means the consonants themselves are underspecified for celestial positions?

There's this talk from a Language Creation Conference which basically is about complexity in non-natural languages. You could always take inspiration from it and help you decide where your script becomes too complex.

Aesthetically, what you have is nice, and has potential to be beautiful. Functionally, however, I guess it works for a subset of culture that uses it for a very specific purpose, kinda like angelic or alchemy symbols, but as a practical script, it's a bit too complex. I'm not sure that it would be used by a culture at large without significant changes and adaptations.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:15 am Absolutely awesome idea.

Oh, thank you.

Please do anyway, you've made me curious.

The phonology isn't interesting at all really, it's just the standard /a ɔ ɪ u ɛ/.

That means the consonants themselves are underspecified for celestial positions?

Yes, if I understand you correctly. In the proto-script I defined consonants using the alchemical symbols, (so: fire for plosives, water for sonorants, etc.) and some arbitrarily assigned lines showing the place of articulation, so - nothing to do with the planetary arrangement. That's why in the current version of the script I have moved towards more of a syllabary system. Now all the glyphs, except for those used to spell complex codas, either contain a vowel, or have to "agree" with the preceding vowel, and there aren't many complex codas in my conlang.

talk from a Language Creation Conference which basically is about complexity in non-natural languages

Thank's for linking this: that talk is absolutely wonderful. Yeah, I suppose my script is intended to be uncooperative at its core, but now I wonder if I can actually include some uncooperativity into the pragmatics, such as "not using certain phrases if Venus is visible in the sky" or "avoiding imperatives when in the open sea".

masako wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:53 am Aesthetically, what you have is nice, and has potential to be beautiful.

Thank you, do you have any specific suggestions or criticisms? I was thinking about playing with the shape of the glyphs some more, so your feedback would be quite handy.

Functionally, however, I guess it works for a subset of culture that uses it for a very specific purpose, kinda like angelic or alchemy symbols, but as a practical script, it's a bit too complex. I'm not sure that it would be used by a culture at large without significant changes and adaptations.

That's how it is actually used "in the world," so this seems to be about right. Or did you mean it in terms of the shape of the symbols?
In case this is relevant, here's the in-world history of the script:

dansoo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:45 am Thank you, do you have any specific suggestions or criticisms? I was thinking about playing with the shape of the glyphs some more, so your feedback would be quite handy.

The shape of each symbol is actually not too bad...but the flow, what I call the "age" of the symbols seems to be lacking. Make yourself some practice sheets, like students of Chinese/Japanese/Korean do for Han characters, and spend some time with each glyph. The overall presentation of the script should improve immensely and you'll have learned (gotten comfortable with) the script.

dansoo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:45 am

Raholeun wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:15 am talk from a Language Creation Conference which basically is about complexity in non-natural languages

Thank's for linking this: that talk is absolutely wonderful. Yeah, I suppose my script is intended to be uncooperative at its core, but now I wonder if I can actually include some uncooperativity into the pragmatics, such as "not using certain phrases if Venus is visible in the sky" or "avoiding imperatives when in the open sea".

You haven't really stated how developed the conlang itself is, if I'm correct. Maybe the VC glyphs trigger some morphophonemic hanky-panky with preceding CV glyphs, which can be indicated by means of special glyphs, or unexpected glyphs? Also, the choice of which glyph doesn't need to be symmetrical. Some syllables may have more than one glyph, but which form to take depends on a) the vowel quality of the preceding syllable 2) whether or not it is part of the stem or it is an affix 3) whether the writer is wearing a pointy hat and tight purple leggings, etc.

Also, don't be afraid to make the glyphs even more elaborate. As you have said, they are written by people for whom writing them is part of their time-honored and very exclusive craft (atleast it seems that way). Those alchemists would pride themselves in knowing the exact forms, so really no need for simplification.

dansoo:

You're welcome for the detailed response.

And thank-you for the detailed response reply.

A very interesting and large conscript presentation.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:08 am and spend some time with each glyph. The overall presentation of the script should improve immensely and you'll have learned (gotten comfortable with) the script.

150 pages of lines, here I come!

Raholeun wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:16 am You haven't really stated how developed the conlang itself is, if I'm correct. Maybe the VC glyphs trigger some morphophonemic hanky-panky with preceding CV glyphs, which can be indicated by means of special glyphs, or unexpected glyphs?

Oh, it's in pretty early stages of development, so all there's place for all kind of changes. That's some good ideas. I think what I want to try is getting rid of some of the E-glyphs through some kind of assimilation, as the E's retain their form in the current system, which can be useful if I want the players to recognize a few words in a larger text (not too large, though: I'm not a sadist), but can also make the whole thing a bit too readable (though you can perfectly read it as an abjad anyway). Yes, I should either do something about the E's or make the consonants a bit more unpredictable.

Also, don't be afraid to make the glyphs even more elaborate. As you have said, they are written by people for whom writing them is part of their time-honored and very exclusive craft (atleast it seems that way). Those alchemists would pride themselves in knowing the exact forms, so really no need for simplification.

That's true, but I also think that at least a thousand years of teaching young apprentices would have left it's mark on the script, so I at least want the glyphs to pass the "handwriting test", though I expect the changes to be fairly minor.