Zompist Bboard Again

Edit: the third draft of Proto-1 is now up over on my blog:

https://guessishouldputthisupsomewhere. ... ird-draft/

And here are two more, although much less detailed, languages, Proto-2 and Proto-3:

https://guessishouldputthisupsomewhere. ... d-proto-3/

Here are the last three, very rudimentary, a priori languages Proto-4, C3, and D6:

https://guessishouldputthisupsomewhere. ... c3-and-d6/



*very long sigh*

I know, I know, we’re not supposed to post just phonologies, since, as Zompist put it in the LCK, it’s as if a painter would announce which colors they’re planning to use before painting something. But, well, I’m trying to come up with a bunch of naming languages for a lot of names in my conhistory, and before I start to use them for actually inventing the names, I wanted to ask more experienced and knowledgeable people whether the phonologies and syllable creation rules make sense, and if there are any problems with any of them. These are my first attempts ever. So here it goes.

Transliteration: I generally use consonants with their English values and vowels with their German values. <æ> is pronounced as a standard English <a> when reciting the alphabet. <ĥ> is pronounced as a voiceless palatal fricative (<ch> in German “ich” or <h> before <u> in some dialects of English). Macrons <ā> indicate long vowels, acutes <á> indicate short stressed vowels, and circumflexes <â> long stressed vowels.

The languages don’t have real names yet because I don’t want to come up with any words in them, not even their own names, before I’m sure about the phonology and syllable creation rules.

Unless otherwise indicated, the letters describing categories are taken from Zompist’s various conlanging tools. Without those tools, I would never have been able to do this, so many tanks to Zompist!



Proto-1:
Needed as the base for 9 derived languages, including my main conculture's main language. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 320 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Retroflex	Palatals	Velars	Uvular	Glottal
Plosives	p b	t d			k g	q
Fricatives	f	s z th sh zh					h
Affricates		ts dz ch j
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		l r
Semivowels	w

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i ī		u
Close	e		ō
Low		a ā

Possible syllables:

CV V CRVNP CRV CVP


No three vowels may follow each other in the same word. The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word. No two vowels that only differ by length may immediately follow each other in the same word.
Stress on the last syllable, unless there are both long and short vowels in the word, in which case it is on the last long vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Meaningless random pseudotext created by the gen tool, with a few changes made by me to make it conform to my additional rules, to give you a feel for how the language might look like if I keep this phonology and set of rules:

Diké tlunpkú bigipaprinq ifā trumgshlamthī mīpfugremkteqī āe? Thrōmprī trīmpidu blant prōmbīsa bu pāzhī. Zeīfrumq slō kā hlī̂ō zhibōt gī zrīnthrā. Ī̂ri bōete īekib trump pu. Ō i ī kihrimb ōplamd ā. Īe prembetezō ā pōu kōte qī? Zībā gakrampi upō pe paitu dlemkītlentshlenb. Blīmgetut trikō tīkrumg ae jupō dōkutprimd. Klekō izi thlimb thāklimg trīmg? Epīdekību zīe zhrimte jupre. Nlenpthuā gōshid brīsa ōī thī̂klepu qibremk. Plimbgu taī buprimd gu drimgō. Ifrempbīkwō pasha. Blenphā hremb tlunpshī ishi prīmktlethlinb. Trearlunb pleplānt iqlānb blōnk bluget prinpi ī? Bō tātqrī grimbbru deibremkjlī tī di. Gīsa udegdie eitlimt trumpōime blīnbti trumgījōpuī. Teqī pibtruntafrānk pe i zri klōbuba. Klunesu shuglempbe ûā fībi tābpā fōt. Drīntī ī̂ā pitba shrumqpī feī fekra? I. Dupi tekrumq heki frabrend ā tlīmd! Gaōpre tōplōng īadrō du. I ōi thīōfu dupiti ī pātqru. Upru chle bītīdī plīnbue rlump bīqīqleī. Diōrlent bi ue ti thrinqe qeōapīt flanpbāpī̂li. Zībō be drindkri shu fitui prōmb! Chī kihōplupōnlu prō irīpremb tlāpi. Gōdīt rushīzi pīqī zhrunbbuplutleng. Wlōmgqī biōudlīmk buī wlī idaprinp zrīmdi.



Proto-2:
Needed as the base for 2 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the
base for 30 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the
naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Retroflex	Palatals	Velars	Uvular	Glottal
Plosives	p b	t d			k g
Fricatives	f v	z					h
Nasals		n
Liquids		l r
Semivowels	w

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u ū
Close	ē		ō
Low		ā

Possible syllables:

CV VC VNP CRV CVP CVN CVR CVD CVG CVS

No three vowels may follow each other in the same word. The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word. No two vowels that only differ by length may immediately follow each other in the same word.
Stress on the second-to-last syllable, unless there are both long and short vowels in the word, in which case it is on the first long vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Meaningless random pseudotext created by the gen tool, with a few changes made by me to make it conform to my additional rules, to give you a feel for how the language might look like if I keep this phonology and set of rules:

Buktēd bilnlu vi pārēf tētzug purbub vūlbup indūnkpōfū. Ūdtufiblēdir pōnēg iwhūd kuribhōzrē tūdpōnpi bilpāl tūlfu uw. Klukinpātānbki inphuz bifiz wēndil gēnni fri. Vibib kruhunpēn āwfitbutnān grōdē lūfut bigzōt. Tuniub rinbōpābdōn unpkōtur dig buk pōd. Dlāpi ānptrūkān itupzēzpōl durbōl kāl ūdōbōhūkvrē. Bābdūrētbūd pān dōk pēnub pil āng. Tāndrifā bōgibut pilūb ub intbidbōrēf inb. Tūgūd ēwgōn būbibkrūtōk ditlēvōt zrulruhubtin ūnpflūribhūn. Fūn inpinp unpkēg ōndunpānp pūndūinbdōltin tātlākfūk budir pē ōgbōz. Bupriprū tupbōt nēti pōnpōkip ungbōnpētblifōk wigēl. Pūgik bugib vēlpunpūd zrūtuk izfin dunvāf. Rluid kāttik fildirōnbēt blū rliudūpkinvēl bābipūk. Kūplā ōng dēlbūnup ubdēp itzididēkut kōrōdil. Bli pēpūtplēbūl pilpukzēnēnt bāp zu piltādru. Fōntō bēzputpōfir kērblidūt ukēnkvēg tūngi? Klō bulbupzukunk widēz lundōk hilōnb klūlūdprū. Tlūbip pudulūnt fridōn kuntēt zitgig ānprir. Uknib dōg vāwūpdid tuttō tinli iz tubduzbēupūnk. Piking tlāfū pētfup ūt pilzōn dirki. Pūrbūntōgētit inpnūp kōdip zōlōg pudtigēk āzdōn bārānp kidē nuzbrūpūr. Zrufipi ziūdglēkūn ungtādupun ēntzli ēzvūnwun tiplu. Rlē āng fūkdif pōpgik. Bēnfli hū di inbtē zūdūktibigōnp lid. Wiēbtūn gōz unbint ipzēdēn gētdūn? Ānk ūntkug ōdkufruzū iwtlizēpēztāl tōrip ludu bluāp. Nē punkudpāp rēbūn unggūnfin ūziztūn? Ud dūwēr indllulihrē vōphēdpikburgūd. Tētkurubungūnp dunbēpglē burgē pēāl ōp ūpdō pō vōktifēkub linkiltipwi. Titūl kān dūnbālūnt nrōūnd tipin bēōnb blupūk tudfinnō pug pōptlu.



Proto-3:
Needed as the base for 4 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 59 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Retroflex	Palatals	Velars	Uvular	Glottal
Plosives	p	d			k
Fricatives	v	th					h
Affricates		ch
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		l
Semivowels	w			y

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i í		u ú
Close	é		o ô
Low	æ	a â

Special consonant categories:
1=p d k v th ch
2=p d k
3=l
4=m n l
5=p d k v th ch m n l

Possible Syllables:

V5 CV CV5 13V5 13V42 CV42

Except for a few words that are probably loanwords, every word starts with a vowel. The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word. No two vowels that only differ by stress or lack thereof may immediately follow each other in the same word. Stress is determined by which stressed vowels appear in the word. Each polysyllabic word must contain at least one stressed syllable. In monosyllabic words, the vowel must be stressed or æ, but they are written without stress markers for the sake of simplicity.

Meaningless random pseudotext created by the gen tool, with a few changes made by me to make it conform to my additional rules, to give you a feel for how the language might look like if I keep this phonology and set of rules:

Íthklévhunp umphív échlum édikpúpthinchlémk ôâchdúthipith âvpíp. Ithchlúld úmdthu únud inp udvúpdu úthdâvvonkkôpdlom id. Uélyidé ich ech íthé ud imkdâ. Æthwúm ôdkothídvék íthdímkpid auv ômúchúp id udéthkúddlin ékklénp ith. Ævhimpkæ op id éúddlâl íd æm. Oth úkplik æpuchkíp íthplund unpích ônpúv úpôthíchich. Ikkú úlpúlp inpôvputh. Unkdlôlp ævlæpúth éuk úthvluch apúpoth andíkvlílkím. Âkiæp ukú ílpdilmíviv ip úchíppov ôvdith uchvivvlénp. Échimkí æk æpé onichpúndup úkún íthip? Ilkékvlúmdplúmk æn on élkílhúvké úchathvumpédkôlp úlvom uth. Ínkpu uvhúk uch ímplik uchklânp æm. Úddíd iyúth onthúvvépâvin iplúp ilpík odklímk. Úthpolk uchplând âvthu upípthuæk ivukapdlid yíndtho pipívthív. Ed únyæ úvlolp ôpthlumdkléthikpé. Úppíludí ud íthpinp ech úththlolkchlomkthlath ap. Uk ôthlim ânémk aipéch idlí. Ithpachípdôn ænodklâk údapvlid ívæn úchplumdkúék. Ílthinp do ith ivthlômd æn édpémp? Idichúplolpip únichvô æéklonpâk úmki úmdyúkméínthlomp ithplúndvlind? Olôp iludám ithôpchinid íchkuímplimplulk Únkdoæp úulphu. Ônpu im úpípod ed ékôp ôthchúmk! Évkluld énúdadpiv upthíth iphé upklílpthíhiæl uvdlôm? Upvú vâkí kæthlinép ímthém ækdlúmk? Íkkípúd avvá âlkluvpô ipdú únum. Ithlíd achívúd úddlúchidthol ôdlikkí úvchúnchaluv! Évdí édvéth oth áíp íkáld ípâthôp. Id ælpvúíl ílkluld ukún ovklúnk. Im íphudvudôd upúmhô ímdu imp ôvwidí unkvôpum upakúdvo. Im ílp ad úklúmp.



Proto-4:
Needed as the base for 3 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 11 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Retroflex	Palatals	Velars	Uvular	Glottal
Plosives	p	t			k g
Fricatives							h
Nasals		n
Semivowels	w			y

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	a

Special consonant categories:

1=p t k g
2=n
3=g

Possible syllables:

CV V1 V23 CV1 CV23


The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the last syllable. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Meaningless random pseudotext created by the gen tool, with a few changes made by me to make it conform to my additional rules, to give you a feel for how the language might look like if I keep this phonology and set of rules:

Wokiap takep hopipæng hægkæ pæ ungotwætuæg? Ækgo hoko ugkang engong apæk tugiphitwonop. Gu! Ingtokæ ogpi tuok angkipupyi kaig puangkangap ungpo. Haæp tikpu uk hi gip æng. Ang gopok kungtung ingpip tingpeongang æging. Piningwugti gahet egpinging? Ungog ingtenong niheng kipæwo ungeng napang? Æteng pæengtut wingne gatgaing pa. Guet kængti iktaing ka hægohegtat tapægwæ? Æptuingukging tu ik higip pi ingit angpogpingangna. Pigægi tipa ong pepnoangæk. Angwæ kitipung kiit yuong eping eng ingung. Ongwæ appegni kikit egiknæng ukgeptipewi pingug. Teuteng ingku okægyingækwa up yu teghawag tuke. Nakæ wonggu gekyepaot ot ugweuk higtak! Wætængæng inghu gekong hegang wungte pæk. Tængotong pangkutteket. Ætpog otpek pæte. Iptugepit tappengti pongtongti. Ung ti nongyokhi ungeng keæng engpeit. Geka nikti ingog ingwingengot gækong. Pitgæwuto ing ang tepot yepiungip tugongup yepotit. Engtiop paegengpi æp pep. Poug ung etgo upge heti pekegong. Pe kignu æpengangpang hitætwot onging tu iptææp? Tuput upko ug angyæag ethi ongæng? Ingting angip keti winget ingguk yæpnu wingog it. Ugtipni it giop geongyæ nit? Tayi igyæ ig.



Language temporarily code named C3:
I haven’t decided yet whether it is a language isolate or simply the only language from its family that has appeared in my conhistory so far, but I’m leaning towards the latter. Anyway, this language will have to provide 13 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Retroflex	Palatals	Velars	Uvular	Glottal
Plosives	b	d			g	q
Fricatives	f	z		ĥ			h
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		r
Semivowels				y

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close			o
Low		a

Special consonant categories:
1=b d g
2=b d g q f z ĥ m n r


Possible syllables:

CV V2 CV2 1RV2

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the third-to-last syllable, or the first syllable of a two-syllable-word. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Meaningless random pseudotext created by the gen tool, with a few changes made by me to make it conform to my additional rules, to give you a feel for how the language might look like if I keep this phonology and set of rules:

Ĥaubigbraf bodaug ifmada drumgroz biqboga ug. Zayograb ibda doda boĥiz guzyu idga. Ba ubĥi qoĥmizguĥidig inbib zogibrugiib bodbibraq ob oqfi nudo. Digaĥga qo ĥi riq qizan? Draraz ziqagodi afdo gafidug. Qodbab aĥub ob zunu nogi quam. Ubgiuq fifud ĥuabfu diof dofiĥ qibron iboz dragar ud. Ibobof ubrif uraid iqzidaqidaf zaĥmudigrizag ofbo. Ĥiod umoz qodgu dunag gougagun yagi. Orgron gim dor ba? Ogibdaugrom zobu ĥuqa ĥiobraud brifgi afqub. Brazfab fobzof ĥi? Brofan guĥ hub ĥohu dudadi ufbo. Zo giba bribfoig qaiĥ gaqu ubdo. Ongamoguf brabqa qogribim igriĥ idquhobroĥhu rigriq. Grigoguqozfu ĥiĥu zaziog ig qagriquq ĥiaz obfobgrim. Iq odudbuoĥ baduru bruban buĥudob qaiqbo. Briz dogrudbizzu inhu! Qiĥifbiĥo goduod ĥo ug gagyi uz daqu. Goq ofqubib duginuq im ibyi? Uĥ igzi drudhaun do ibdo bruf. Indram hibubu oq rioz! Ifĥuĥdood bumzadu di imbrob fodriq biga. Gi fo diqudbriq ba qubombu? Giub guig roidgi dooq drobgo unombo aqfuqibogyi qinibigrabiz ugfa uguqodid nuzuqi. Oguf ubon obni niogiz igombibig agdi. Zud ĥoimdoqidrif ignuĥuhu doduid ubnibuqafod fododouq. Gobiab agibidrab ubru zugan hoĥi dumi? Gradmu ugri qubad digid ĥif dromiro. Qaqumbi qadi qobnaĥu nifa di dib!



Language temporarily code named D6:
I haven’t decided yet whether it is a language isolate or simply the only language from its family that has appeared in my conhistory so far, but I’m leaning towards the former. Anyway, this language will have to provide 12 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Retroflex	Palatals	Velars	Uvular	Glottal
Plosives	b	t d			g
Fricatives	f v	s					h
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		l r
Semivowels	w

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	a

Special consonant category:
1=b t d g f v s m n l r

Possible words:

CVVV1 VV1 CVV CVVV CV V1 VVV1

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the middle vowel of any three-vowel-sequence, otherwise on the first vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Meaningless random pseudotext created by the gen tool, with a few changes made by me to make it conform to my additional rules, to give you a feel for how the language might look like if I keep this phonology and set of rules:

Aub maiæt et eil voi mie. Eit boiol doo ut boaob æor. Bi goaut ief ius vuo veiev foean el ææov. Ueib eov nea tæeis ab rae hiæ. Bai bi oif bæaæd vi. Fiæ? Uæt næi oib baæal beo. Tæeid teæ aad neu uad ut nueib. Eiv æb hui voia æub hoia? Si dæaig soæom. Iug iug ve uæun ud gouæf du. Bu duæod æm uid buei. Heoat giae im vi fi raoe. Vue luied æod iam dueo? It id uav veuel dææog hoæ? Hæaob eib ti feuid iæb ueb? Toiem eum iuv hae ud doeud bæu. Tæeif dua taoeb foeu uig. Ued wouog meo doæ ub ga hoa! Iur uit hioev eat voiab aiv iuer ef ub veio? Aid waæo gu fæe woiub heae? Tuae viuig be bæa toiæ go. Taoæm æes vai be eud lio. Ov or ha tæeon baæe boeam hou tuæ. Uaf at go æob oef fuais! Ef bouæb neuæb gueæ foe bauær? Tæu riæ æos deoa næ veiod. Bu buoim touof æin du aog soei oib? Mi iæb aom bioa is vu! Siae teuif bei du tia tæe.



And finally, several “languages”, unrelated to the others and each other, that will only have to provide one name each, listed by temporary code name of the language, followed by the type of name and actual name they will provide (yes, I got some of these by randomly hitting keys):

E1: (name of an alliance that was at war with my main conculture once) Dûjrujt Nō
E2: (name of a strait) Izlfæjtz Strait
E5: (name of a place where a conference resulting in a peace treaty was held) Hakák Umâo Tel
E7: (surname followed by given name) Syôfelt Molní
E11: (name of a nation that was sometimes at war with my main conculture) Nándime
E12: (name of a nation that was at war with my main conculture at least once) Wôshrut Klíta
E13: (name of a place where an important treaty was signed) Fre!gnìsk

And now for something slightly different:

I have some ideas for possible semantic shifts in the development of some of my language families, and I wanted to ask how plausible these potential semantic shifts are. I've listed them for three of my proto-languages - first the original meaning, then the eventual meaning. The meaning that I plan to actually use for naming things in my conhistory is the eventual meaning, so if a proposed semantic shift is implausible, it's the original meaning that would have to be changed. In case you're wondering how I selected my English meanings - they're based on my plans for the etymological derivation of various place names and a few other names.



Proto-1 and its descendants:

meat →→→ deer

darkness, dark place →→→ forest

path, road →→→ ford (river crossing)

rightful, righteous →→→ proper, appropriate, worthy of consideration

family →→→ nation, people

leader, head of household →→→ kingdom

experienced, wise →→→ cunning, clever, street smart

hit, strike →→→ break, smash, shatter

string, rope →→→ chain

mouth →→→ language, speech

ear →→→ rabbit- or hare-like animal

tall, high →→→ hill

dividing line →→→ edge of a geographical area

danger, threat →→→ one part of a word meaning „swamp“

water →→→ another part of a word meaning „swamp“

large rock, boulder →→→ castle, fortress

rocky surface →→→ stone used as a construction material

place (noun) →→→ area, land, region

horizon →→→ far away, distant

type, version, variety →→→ suffix indicating a word is the name of a language



Proto-3 and its descendents:

own (direction) →→→ valley, glen

sea →→→ lake

fur, pelt →→→ one part of the name of a species of aquatic rodent

wet, moist →→→ another part of the name of a species of aquatic rodent

much, many →→→ plural prefix

up (direction) →→→ mountain

shadow (noun), something that is not material →→→ fairy-like mythological creature



Proto-4 and its descendants:

quick, fast moving →→→ a species of fish

view as in “vista“ →→→ land, kingdom

fear (noun) →→→ coward

leaf (noun) →→→ forest

pronoun 3rd person singular genitive →→→ possessive/genitive prefix

Phonologies are fine. I would assume if that was ALL you posted and spammed them, it would be an issue. Not that case here.

Someone is bound to say it, so I'll do the honors here: you should post the inventories using IPA.

I'm not a great phonology person, but I don't see anything wrong with what you have. <ĥ> for a palatal fricative seems a tiny bit odd to me when you're already using <h> and don't have a lot of sounds. However, it's not wrong at all.

The one thing I'd look at is your letter frequencies, which are an important part of the feel of the language. If you're using phono, you're going to get categories like P=pbtdkg. That's going to give you a lot of voiced stops (which will make your language feel kind of Persian). Also experiment with changing the order of the points of articulation. P=ptkbdg will give a very different feeling from P=tpkdbg.

Oh, and for proto-4, it looks like you're trying to get digraphs in a somewhat weird way. Better:

• define a consonant ŋ
• define finals with N=nŋ
• have a rewrite rule ŋ|ng

It's better simply because it's far more extensible as you add syllable types.

The shifts seem fine at first glance; I'll do them in the next post.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmI’m trying to come up with a bunch of naming languages for a lot of names in my conhistory, and before I start to use them for actually inventing the names, I wanted to ask more experienced and knowledgeable people whether the phonologies and syllable creation rules make sense, and if there are any problems with any of them. These are my first attempts ever. So here it goes.

Nice! this is already far better than my first attempts. I do, however, wonder what the morphologies of the languages would be (since that's, AFAIK, pretty important in creating any toponyms with more than 1 root in them). I'm sure they'll form eventually, but IMO grammar differentiates languages far more than phonology. I could never possibly confuse Hebrew for Kajkavian, even if the phonolgies are extremely similar.
Also,

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmTransliteration: I generally use consonants with their English values and vowels with their German values. <æ> is pronounced as a standard English <a> when reciting the alphabet. <ĥ> is pronounced as a voiceless palatal fricative (<ch> in German “ich” or <h> before <u> in some dialects of English). Macrons <ā> indicate long vowels, acutes <á> indicate short stressed vowels, and circumflexes <â> long stressed vowels.
...
Unless otherwise indicated, the letters describing categories are taken from Zompist’s various conlanging tools. Without those tools, I would never have been able to do this, so many tanks to Zompist!

I really do like this romanization scheme, and I know this is your first attempt, but please learn the IPA. It makes stuff like this a whole lot easier, and it allows you to make distinctions that aren't in English or German (it's usually in SOME language, but the point is that you don't need to resort to analogous comparison). Also, there's this, which I find super helpful for typing IPA. Also also, Zompist's table layouts are certainly useful as a starting point, but they are not the only distinctions you seem to be making here. I'll try to point it out when it happens later.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-1:
Needed as the base for 9 derived languages, including my main conculture's main language. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 320 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Velars	Gutteral
Plosives	p b		t d		k g	q
Fricatives	f	th	s z	sh zh		h
Affricates			ts dz	ch j
Nasals	m		n
Approximants	w		l r

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i ī		u
Close	e		ō
Low		a ā

Possible syllables:

(C)(R)V CRVNP CVP


No three vowels may follow each other in the same word. The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word. No two vowels that only differ by length may immediately follow each other in the same word.
Stress on the last syllable, unless there are both long and short vowels in the word, in which case it is on the last long vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Seems pretty thorough. I've also reconfigured the table and syllables a bit to be more efficient with space(changes in blue). The thing that immediately jumps out at me is why CRVNP and CVP syllables are allowed, but CRVP and CVNP are not. Regardless, it seems good. However, I really should stress that this is the one that needs grammar the most, since it'll have the most use as your main conculture's language.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-2:
Needed as the base for 2 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the
base for 30 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the
naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Velars	Glottal
Plosives	p b	t d	k g
Fricatives	f v	z		h
Nasals		n
Approximants	w	l r

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u ū
Close	ē		ō
Low		ā

Possible syllables:

(C)V(C) CRV VNP

No three vowels may follow each other in the same word. The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word. No two vowels that only differ by length may immediately follow each other in the same word.
Stress on the second-to-last syllable, unless there are both long and short vowels in the word, in which case it is on the first long vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.
Syllables must have at least 1 consonant

The vowel system reminds me of Proto-Slavic a bit, so pretty cool. You might want to balance it a bit with a low short vowel of some kind, though. Regardless, this looks like it could be really cool to derive from if you introduce allophony later.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-3:
Needed as the base for 4 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 59 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Postalveolars	Gutteral
Plosives	p	d	*ch	k
Fricatives	v	th		h
Nasals	m	n
Approximants	w	l	y

*=sound is affricated
Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i í		u ú
Close	é		o ô
Low	æ	a â

Special consonant categories:
1=p d k v th ch
2=p d k
3=l (you don't need this; you can just use lowercase l)
4=m n l (this is usually accomplished through a capital R)
5=p d k v th ch m n l

Possible Syllables:

VR CV(5) 1lVR 1lV42 CV42

Except for a few words that are probably loanwords, every word starts with a vowel. The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word. No two vowels that only differ by stress or lack thereof may immediately follow each other in the same word. Stress is determined by which stressed vowels appear in the word. Each polysyllabic word must contain at least one stressed syllable. In monosyllabic words, the vowel must be stressed or æ, but they are written without stress markers for the sake of simplicity.

The vowel system here seems pretty cool, especially if there's some system of "de-stressing" rules for words with multiple stressed phonemes. Do destressed â/ô shorten, btw? What happens to destressed é/æ?
Also, the consonants are kinda out-there. I don't want to use IPA if you don't know it, but "d" with no "t" is incredibly weird, especially since there's no "b/j/g". Also the "th" sound, whichever of the two you're using here, is incredibly rare, especially since there's no "s" in this language. Either this language has some seriously wacky allophony, or the phonology breaks records. Also, I just noticed that this is the first language to have the "y" sound. Is this intentional? If so, that makes Proto1 & Proto2 pretty weird for not having it.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-4:
Needed as the base for 3 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 11 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Dorsals	Glottals
Plosives	p	t	k g
Fricatives				h
Sonorants	w	n	y

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	a

Special consonant categories:

1=p t k g
2=n
3=g again, you don't need these

Possible syllables:

CV (C)V1 (C)Vng

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the last syllable. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.

Seems both realistic and easy to derive from. Cool!
Btw (per the part marked in green), so long as you say what the default stress is, one need not mark stress 100% of the time, only when it deviates from the default.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmLanguage temporarily code named C3:
I haven’t decided yet whether it is a language isolate or simply the only language from its family that has appeared in my conhistory so far, but I’m leaning towards the latter. Anyway, this language will have to provide 13 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Dorsals	Gutterals
Plosives	b	d	g	q
Fricatives	f	z	ĥ	h
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		r	y

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close			o
Low		a

Special consonant categories:
1=b d g
2=b d g q f z ĥ m n r


Possible syllables:

(C)V(C) PRVC

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the third-to-last syllable, or the first syllable of a two-syllable-word. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.
Syllables must have at least 1 consonant
The phonemes "h" and "y" are disallowed from the coda
The initial cluster "qR" may not occur.

I like this one, but it'd need some serious allophony with that fricative row. Also, I think you might be trying to do the voiced uvular stop, but I can't be sure due to the vagueness of how it's defined; this is the sort of thing you need the IPA for. If you instead meant the voiceless uvular stop, then that's slightly weirder. I can't exactly say it's "p/d/ch/k but not t"-tier weird, but I'd expect non-vocally-contrastive stops to have the same voicing. Also, you might want to voice "f" to "v" to make up for the lack of "w". Missing "w" isn't necessarily very weird, but when it's not there, there tends to be some sort of "v" sound (see: German, Russian).

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmLanguage temporarily code named D6:
I haven’t decided yet whether it is a language isolate or simply the only language from its family that has appeared in my conhistory so far, but I’m leaning towards the former. Anyway, this language will have to provide 12 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Velar	Glottal
Plosives	b	t d	g
Fricatives	f v	s		h
Nasals	m	n
Approximants	w	l r

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	a

Special consonant category:
1=b t d g f v s m n l r

Possible words:

(C)(V)V(V)(C)

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the middle vowel of any three-vowel-sequence, otherwise on the first vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.
There must be at least one consonant per word.
The phonemes "h" and "w" are disallowed from ending a word

Again, the lack of "y" is kinda weird. Otherwise, the main thing that strikes me is the sheer number of consecutive vowels. Are they allophonically combined or turned into semivowels? If so, this might be cool to derive languages from. If not, this truly would be a language isolate on par with Basque; unlimited diphthongs/triphthongs is easily the most unique, most strange ideä I've ever seen.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmAnd finally, several “languages”, unrelated to the others and each other, that will only have to provide one name each, listed by temporary code name of the language, followed by the type of name and actual name they will provide (yes, I got some of these by randomly hitting keys):

E1: (name of an alliance that was at war with my main conculture once) Dûjrujt Nō
E2: (name of a strait) Izlfæjtz Strait
E5: (name of a place where a conference resulting in a peace treaty was held) Hakák Umâo Tel
E7: (surname followed by given name) Syôfelt Molní
E11: (name of a nation that was sometimes at war with my main conculture) Nándime
E12: (name of a nation that was at war with my main conculture at least once) Wôshrut Klíta
E13: (name of a place where an important treaty was signed) Fre!gnìsk

These all look pretty interesting, especially the "Izlfæjtz" one. Also, "Fre!gnìsk", where the "!g" is a click of some kind, would certainly be interesting. However, I do wonder how much of these you actually need to make. After all, you already have the words, do you not?

More likely than not in green, plausible in blue, rare in red

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:19 pm
I have some ideas for possible semantic shifts in the development of some of my language families, and I wanted to ask how plausible these potential semantic shifts are. I've listed them for three of my proto-languages - first the original meaning, then the eventual meaning. The meaning that I plan to actually use for naming things in my conhistory is the eventual meaning, so if a proposed semantic shift is implausible, it's the original meaning that would have to be changed.
The same word in a proto-language often shifts in completely different directions in daughter languages. Latin dōs (gift, endowment) and Sanskrit दिति (distribution, liberalism) are both descended from the same word [déh₃tis], and each of them has descendents with even more semantic modification like Portuguese dote (dowry, charity foundation). Having the same semantic drift across the entire family is probably not a good idea, especially if you want variety. That said, here's each change, with clarification if it's a grey areä and alternatives if unrealistic:

Proto-1 and its descendants:
meat →→→ deer It most likely went through a phase of "game" (hunting), so perhaps this is a divergence point: different languages use their cognates for this word for different types of game.
darkness, dark place →→→ forest
path, road →→→ ford (river crossing)
rightful, righteous →→→ proper, appropriate, worthy of consideration
family →→→ nation, people This famously happened in German (tewtiskos>þiudiskaz>diutische>deutsch)
leader, head of household →→→ kingdom It would need to go through a stage of just meaning "king", but this is doäble.
experienced, wise →→→ cunning, clever, street smart
hit, strike →→→ break, smash, shatter
string, rope →→→ chain
mouth →→→ language, speech
ear →→→ rabbit- or hare-like animal You might need another element to combine "ear" with to get "rabbit". I'm thinking something like "long ear" might work, or maybë "ear game", using the morpheme from before.
tall, high →→→ hill In addition, this might be a source for the adjective "strong" or "secure" if you need those later.
dividing line →→→ edge of a geographical area AFAIK, there is usually no lexical distinction for these two things. Even English seems noncommittal about "border" despite having ~3 words for the same concept. It's probably best to assume a lack of a shift here.
danger, threat + water →→→ „swamp“
large rock, boulder →→→ castle, fortress
rocky surface →→→ stone used as a construction material You might want to add on some other information there (like the colour).
place (noun) →→→ area, land, region
horizon →→→ far away, distant I'd expect this in the other direction, but I think this'd work
type, version, variety →→→ suffix indicating a word is the name of a language On one hand, this is attested in the Germanic languages. On the other, it took quite a few steps to get there (type suffix → place of origin suffix → nationality suffix → language suffix). The best thing to do here is likely to give it a concurrent meaning in which it denotes nationality.

Proto-3 and its descendents:
own (direction) →→→ valley, glen The verb "own", used as a command, shouldn't produce anything except a grammatical particle or a command. Something like "that which I own" will probably get you there, but only if the society is a feudal society.
sea →→→ lake
fur, pelt + wet, moist →→→ a species of aquatic rodent
much, many →→→ plural prefix
up (direction) →→→ mountain Probably, you'd want something like "up place", rather than just "up" by itself.
shadow, something that is not material →→→ fairy-like mythological creature

Proto-4 and its descendants:
quick, fast moving →→→ a species of fish
view as in “vista“ →→→ land, kingdom Only if the society has at least one such kingdom for which there is a higher-elevation vista of some kind (in a valley, next to mountains, a really tall island just offshore, etc)
fear (noun) →→→ coward You probably need something like "fear person".
leaf (noun) →→→ forest It'd work if the original was a plural (leaves), but was interpreted as singular later
pronoun 3rd person singular genitive →→→ possessive/genitive prefix

Thank you for your feedback, everyone! Especially Das Public Viewing!

Vardelm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:54 pm Phonologies are fine. I would assume if that was ALL you posted and spammed them, it would be an issue. Not that case here.

Someone is bound to say it, so I'll do the honors here: you should post the inventories using IPA.

Yes, I plan to learn IPA. And during the time when I haven't learned it yet, I plan to at least look up the IPA symbols for my sounds.

I'm not a great phonology person, but I don't see anything wrong with what you have. <ĥ> for a palatal fricative seems a tiny bit odd to me when you're already using <h> and don't have a lot of sounds. However, it's not wrong at all.

I made that decision because I was trying to stick as closely as possible to my general self-imposed "English consonants and German vowels" rule. Of course, "officially", there is no letter for the sound in question in English, but the closest you got is that an initial <h> before <u> is apparently pronounced that way in some British and Australian dialects. So I thought an <h> with some sort of diacritic might work.

The reason why I decided to use English consonants and German vowels in the first place is that those are the orthographies I'm most familiar with, and I thought that neither German consonants nor English vowels would be up to the job. My conhistory is written in English, so if anyone other than me ever reads it, they will probably be familiar with English consonant meanings, while German consonant meanings would just confuse them. On the other hand, English vowels in their "pure" form tend to be pronounced as diphtongs that I don't plan to use that often. And German vowel pronounciations shouldn't be that difficult to figure out for people who already know English - for every simple short German vowel that isn't an umlaut, there seem to be at least some English words where the letter in question is used for a sound close to the sound for which the letter is used in German.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:25 pm The one thing I'd look at is your letter frequencies, which are an important part of the feel of the language. If you're using phono, you're going to get categories like P=pbtdkg. That's going to give you a lot of voiced stops (which will make your language feel kind of Persian). Also experiment with changing the order of the points of articulation. P=ptkbdg will give a very different feeling from P=tpkdbg.

Thank you, I will try that!

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:31 pm Oh, and for proto-4, it looks like you're trying to get digraphs in a somewhat weird way. Better:

• define a consonant ŋ
• define finals with N=nŋ
• have a rewrite rule ŋ|ng

It's better simply because it's far more extensible as you add syllable types.

Thank you, you're right. Will do. (I didn't know that ng is a single phoneme; I had mistaken it for a consonant cluster.)

Das Public Viewing wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:21 pm The shifts seem fine at first glance; I'll do them in the next post.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmI’m trying to come up with a bunch of naming languages for a lot of names in my conhistory, and before I start to use them for actually inventing the names, I wanted to ask more experienced and knowledgeable people whether the phonologies and syllable creation rules make sense, and if there are any problems with any of them. These are my first attempts ever. So here it goes.

Nice! this is already far better than my first attempts. I do, however, wonder what the morphologies of the languages would be (since that's, AFAIK, pretty important in creating any toponyms with more than 1 root in them). I'm sure they'll form eventually, but IMO grammar differentiates languages far more than phonology. I could never possibly confuse Hebrew for Kajkavian, even if the phonolgies are extremely similar.

Good point. I'm currently trying to wrap my head around the various possible types of derivational morphology.

Also,

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmTransliteration: I generally use consonants with their English values and vowels with their German values. <æ> is pronounced as a standard English <a> when reciting the alphabet. <ĥ> is pronounced as a voiceless palatal fricative (<ch> in German “ich” or <h> before <u> in some dialects of English). Macrons <ā> indicate long vowels, acutes <á> indicate short stressed vowels, and circumflexes <â> long stressed vowels.
...
Unless otherwise indicated, the letters describing categories are taken from Zompist’s various conlanging tools. Without those tools, I would never have been able to do this, so many tanks to Zompist!

I really do like this romanization scheme,

and I know this is your first attempt, but please learn the IPA. It makes stuff like this a whole lot easier, and it allows you to make distinctions that aren't in English or German (it's usually in SOME language, but the point is that you don't need to resort to analogous comparison).

Yes - see my reply to Vardelm above.

Also, there's this, which I find super helpful for typing IPA.

Thank you, great!

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-1:
Needed as the base for 9 derived languages, including my main conculture's main language. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 320 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Velars	Gutteral
Plosives	p b		t d		k g	q
Fricatives	f	th	s z	sh zh		h
Affricates			ts dz	ch j
Nasals	m		n
Approximants	w		l r

Great, thank you! I'll switsch to that.

The thing that immediately jumps out at me is why CRVNP and CVP syllables are allowed, but CRVP and CVNP are not.

There isn't really any good reason for that. I'll change it.

Regardless, it seems good. However, I really should stress that this is the one that needs grammar the most, since it'll have the most use as your main conculture's language.

Yes, of course.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-2:
Needed as the base for 2 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the
base for 30 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the
naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Velars	Glottal
Plosives	p b	t d	k g
Fricatives	f v	z		h
Nasals		n
Approximants	w	l r

Thank you again! I'll use that one, too.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-3:
Needed as the base for 4 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 59 naming elements, although it should be possible – and desirable – to reuse many of the naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Postalveolars	Gutteral
Plosives	p	d	*ch	k
Fricatives	v	th		h
Nasals	m	n
Approximants	w	l	y

*=sound is affricated

Thank you again, will use that one, too.

The vowel system here seems pretty cool, especially if there's some system of "de-stressing" rules for words with multiple stressed phonemes. Do destressed â/ô shorten, btw? What happens to destressed é/æ?

To be honest, I haven't though about that yet. At all.

Also, the consonants are kinda out-there. I don't want to use IPA if you don't know it, but "d" with no "t" is incredibly weird, especially since there's no "b/j/g". Also the "th" sound, whichever of the two you're using here, is incredibly rare, especially since there's no "s" in this language. Either this language has some seriously wacky allophony, or the phonology breaks records.

Thank you, good to know. As a first step, I'll remove th and introduce t.

Also, I just noticed that this is the first language to have the "y" sound. Is this intentional?

No. *blush* I hadn't learned yet where it belongs in the table when I worked on the first two. I'll introduce it to them.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmProto-4:
Needed as the base for 3 derived languages. These derived languages, in turn, will be needed as the base for 11 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Dorsals	Glottals
Plosives	p	t	k g
Fricatives				h
Sonorants	w	n	y

Thank you! Where would ŋ fit into that table, if I would turn ng into it?

Seems both realistic and easy to derive from. Cool!
Btw (per the part marked in green), so long as you say what the default stress is, one need not mark stress 100% of the time, only when it deviates from the default.

Thank you! If I was simply writing regular texts, each text in just one language with predictable stress rules, I wouldn't bother with marking stress. But these languages are meant as naming languages for my conhistory. At the moment, my conhistory is one long (although, by the standards of many conworlders, probably fairly short) text containing placehoders for many different names from a number of different languages. If I ever get to the point where I can actually use plausible names instead of placeholders, I want potential readers to be able to tell instantly how each name is pronounced and how it is stressed, without having to look up which language provided it and what the stress ruler for that language are first. Therefore, right now my plan is to mark stress in every individual name once I put it into my conhistory.

Das Public Viewing wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:58 pm
I like this one, but it'd need some serious allophony with that fricative row. Also, I think you might be trying to do the voiced uvular stop, but I can't be sure due to the vagueness of how it's defined; this is the sort of thing you need the IPA for. If you instead meant the voiceless uvular stop, then that's slightly weirder. I can't exactly say it's "p/d/ch/k but not t"-tier weird, but I'd expect non-vocally-contrastive stops to have the same voicing. Also, you might want to voice "f" to "v" to make up for the lack of "w". Missing "w" isn't necessarily very weird, but when it's not there, there tends to be some sort of "v" sound (see: German, Russian).

Hm, what about removing the q and introducing a v?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmLanguage temporarily code named D6:
I haven’t decided yet whether it is a language isolate or simply the only language from its family that has appeared in my conhistory so far, but I’m leaning towards the former. Anyway, this language will have to provide 12 naming elements.

Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Velar	Glottal
Plosives	b	t d	g
Fricatives	f v	s		h
Nasals	m	n
Approximants	w	l r

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	a

Special consonant category:
1=b t d g f v s m n l r

Possible words:

(C)(V)V(V)(C)

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the middle vowel of any three-vowel-sequence, otherwise on the first vowel. For now, I'm not marking stress, though.
There must be at least one consonant per word.
The phonemes "h" and "w" are disallowed from ending a word

Again, the lack of "y" is kinda weird. Otherwise, the main thing that strikes me is the sheer number of consecutive vowels. Are they allophonically combined or turned into semivowels? If so, this might be cool to derive languages from. If not, this truly would be a language isolate on par with Basque; unlimited diphthongs/triphthongs is easily the most unique, most strange ideä I've ever seen.

I was trying to go for a sort of Hawai'ian feel with this one. Unfortunately, that's not really how it turned out.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pmAnd finally, several “languages”, unrelated to the others and each other, that will only have to provide one name each, listed by temporary code name of the language, followed by the type of name and actual name they will provide (yes, I got some of these by randomly hitting keys):

E1: (name of an alliance that was at war with my main conculture once) Dûjrujt Nō
E2: (name of a strait) Izlfæjtz Strait
E5: (name of a place where a conference resulting in a peace treaty was held) Hakák Umâo Tel
E7: (surname followed by given name) Syôfelt Molní
E11: (name of a nation that was sometimes at war with my main conculture) Nándime
E12: (name of a nation that was at war with my main conculture at least once) Wôshrut Klíta
E13: (name of a place where an important treaty was signed) Fre!gnìsk

These all look pretty interesting, especially the "Izlfæjtz" one. Also, "Fre!gnìsk", where the "!g" is a click of some kind, would certainly be interesting. However, I do wonder how much of these you actually need to make. After all, you already have the words, do you not?

For now, I don't have any plans to do any more work on any of these. Perhaps I'll get back to them at some time in the future, if the bug bites me hard enough.

More likely than not in green, plausible in blue, rare in red

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:19 pm
I have some ideas for possible semantic shifts in the development of some of my language families, and I wanted to ask how plausible these potential semantic shifts are. I've listed them for three of my proto-languages - first the original meaning, then the eventual meaning. The meaning that I plan to actually use for naming things in my conhistory is the eventual meaning, so if a proposed semantic shift is implausible, it's the original meaning that would have to be changed.
The same word in a proto-language often shifts in completely different directions in daughter languages. Latin dōs (gift, endowment) and Sanskrit दिति (distribution, liberalism) are both descended from the same word [déh₃tis], and each of them has descendents with even more semantic modification like Portuguese dote (dowry, charity foundation). Having the same semantic drift across the entire family is probably not a good idea, especially if you want variety.

Thank you. I don't plan to use the same semantic shifts in several languages.

dividing line →→→ edge of a geographical area AFAIK, there is usually no lexical distinction for these two things. Even English seems noncommittal about "border" despite having ~3 words for the same concept. It's probably best to assume a lack of a shift here.

Ok.

large rock, boulder →→→ castle, fortress
rocky surface →→→ stone used as a construction material[/b] You might want to add on some other information there (like the colour).

Yes, those are meant to be sources for a city/town name derived from "black stone castle", but I couldn't think of any interesting ealier meaning for "black".

type, version, variety →→→ suffix indicating a word is the name of a language On one hand, this is attested in the Germanic languages. On the other, it took quite a few steps to get there (type suffix → place of origin suffix → nationality suffix → language suffix). The best thing to do here is likely to give it a concurrent meaning in which it denotes nationality.

What about "way [of doing things]² as the earlier meaning? It could have gone through a stage when it meant something like "dialect". The idea is to derive it from something like "the way we speak as opposed to the way those people over there speak".

Proto-3 and its descendents:
own (direction) →→→ valley, glen The verb "own", used as a command, shouldn't produce anything except a grammatical particle or a command. Something like "that which I own" will probably get you there, but only if the society is a feudal society.

Sorry, my bad. When I copied and pasted this somewhere in preparation for posting it here, my cursor missed the initial <d>. I meant to have "down" as a direction turn into "valley, glen".

Das Public Viewing wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:21 pm...please learn the IPA...there's this, which I find super helpful for typing IPA...this is the sort of thing you need the IPA for...

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 amYes, I plan to learn IPA. And during the time when I haven't learned it yet, I plan to at least look up the IPA symbols for my sounds...

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:31 pm Oh, and for proto-4, it looks like you're trying to get digraphs in a somewhat weird way. Better:

• define a consonant ŋ
• define finals with N=nŋ
• have a rewrite rule ŋ|ng

It's better simply because it's far more extensible as you add syllable types.

Thank you, you're right. Will do. (I didn't know that ng is a single phoneme; I had mistaken it for a consonant cluster.)
...

a streamlined table

Great, thank you! I'll switch to that.
...
Where would ŋ fit into that table, if I would turn ng into it?

I just had an ideä: howabout I convert your tables to IPA?
(values for "r" are in blue: I explain why at the end)

Proto-1:
Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Dorsals	Gutteral
Plosives	p b		t d		k g	q
Fricatives	f	θ	s z	ʃ ʒ		h
Affricates			ts dz	tʃ dʒ
Nasals	m		n
Approximants	(w)		l ɹ	ɹ~ɻ	(w)	ʀ

(note: /w/ is coärticulated)
Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i iː		u
Close	e		oː
Low		ä äː

Phonotactics:
(C)(R)V(N)(P)
No three vowels may follow each other in the same word.
The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
No two vowels that only differ by length may immediately follow each other in the same word.
Stress is on the last syllable, unless there are both long and short vowels in the word, in which case it is on the last long vowel.

Proto-2:
Consonants

	Labials	Coronals	Dorsals	Glottal
Plosives	p b	t d	k g
Fricatives	f v	z		h
Nasals		n
Approximants	w	l ɹ(~ɻ)	j

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u uː
Close	eː		oː
Low		äː

Phonotactics
(C)V(C) CRV VNP
No three vowels may follow each other in the same word.
The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
No two vowels that only differ by length may immediately follow each other in the same word.
Stress is on the second-to-last syllable, unless there are both long and short vowels in the word, in which case it is on the first long vowel.
Syllables must have at least 1 consonant

Proto-3: (I added /t/ because you said you'd add "t", but the dental fricative remains in case you want it later)
Consonants

	Labials	Dentals	Postalveolars	Gutteral
Plosives	p	t d	tʃ	k
Fricatives	v	θ		h
Nasals	m	n
Approximants		l ɹ	ɹ~ɻ	ʀ
Approximants	(w)	l	j	(w)

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i *i		u *u
Close	*eː		o *oː
Low	æ	ä *äː

*=vowel has integral phonemic stress regardless of where it appears

Phonotactics:
(where G is any obstruent)
CVC (Gl)VR(P) CVRP
Native words start with a vowel.
The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
No two vowels that only differ by stress or lack thereof may immediately follow each other in the same word. Stress is determined by which stressed vowels appear in the word. Each polysyllabic word must contain at least one stressed syllable.
In monosyllabic words, the vowel must be stressed or /æ/, but they are written without stress markers for the sake of simplicity.
The cluster R+/tʃ/ and the phonemes /w j h/ may not end a word.
The clusters /hl/ is impermissible.

Proto-4:
Consonants

	Labials	Coronals	Dorsals	Gutterals
Plosives	p	t	k g
Fricatives				h
Nasals		n	ŋ
Approximants	w	ɹ(~ɻ)	j	ʀ

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	ä

Phonotactics:
(C)VP (C)Vŋ
The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress is on the last syllable.
Syllables must have at least 1 consonant

Language temporarily code named C3:
Consonants

	Labials	Coronals	Dorsals	Gutterals
Plosives	b	d	g	ɢ
Fricatives	f	z	ç	h
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		ɹ(~ɻ)	j	ʀ

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close			o
Low		ä

Phonotactics:
(C)V(C) PRVC
The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the third-to-last syllable, or the first syllable of a two-syllable-word.
Syllables must have at least 1 consonant
The phonemes /h/ and /j/ are disallowed from the coda
The initial cluster /q/+R may not occur.

Language temporarily code named D6:
Consonants

	Labials	Coronals	Velar	Gutteral
Plosives	b	t d	g
Fricatives	f v	s		h
Nasals	m	n
Approximants	(w)	l ɹ(~ɻ)	(w)	ʀ

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Close	e		o
Low	æ	ä

Phonotactics
(C)(V)V(V)(C)
The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the penultimate vowel of any sequence


Why is "r" blue?
English "r" varies depending on dialect, and sometimes idiolect. People can have basically anything from /ɻ/ (retroflex) to /ɹ̙/ (postalveolar coronal) to even /ɹ̘/ (dental), and I've been told Received Pronunciation has a tapped /ɾ/ like Spanish (I'm not sure if that's actually true though). Basically, the symbol, if you're using English "r" (sometimes known as "bunched r"), is written as /ɹ/ usually, but where it goes in the table might change. The regular /r/ is reserved for trilled "r"s like Russian or Italian, or like in Spanish perro /pero/.
German has /ʀ/ as the historically "correct" version, but /ʁ~ʕ~ɐ̯/ as what most people say nowadays, so if you wanted that, it's uvular. I used the historical version here because I don't need the westonruler keyboard to type it, but the new one goes in the same place.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 am

Das Public Viewing wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:58 pm I like this one, but it'd need some serious allophony with that fricative row. Also, I think you might be trying to do the voiced uvular stop, but I can't be sure due to the vagueness of how it's defined; this is the sort of thing you need the IPA for. If you instead meant the voiceless uvular stop, then that's slightly weirder. I can't exactly say it's "p/d/ch/k but not t"-tier weird, but I'd expect non-vocally-contrastive stops to have the same voicing. Also, you might want to voice "f" to "v" to make up for the lack of "w". Missing "w" isn't necessarily very weird, but when it's not there, there tends to be some sort of "v" sound (see: German, Russian).

Hm, what about removing the q and introducing a v?

That'd probably work. However, I wasn't disparaging a devoiced /q/ in your system. It was more that it was a weird piece of asymmetry in a noncontrastive system.
Perhaps that was a weakness of my post; I didn't distinguish enough between "weird" and "bad". If you wanted it to have unusual features, then go ahead.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:17 pm(C)(V)V(V)(C)

The same phoneme must not immediately follow itself in the same word.
Stress on the middle vowel of any three-vowel-sequence, otherwise on the first vowel.
There must be at least one consonant per word.
The phonemes "h" and "w" are disallowed from ending a word

Again, the lack of "y" is kinda weird. Otherwise, the main thing that strikes me is the sheer number of consecutive vowels. Are they allophonically combined or turned into semivowels? If so, this might be cool to derive languages from. If not, this truly would be a language isolate on par with Basque; unlimited diphthongs/triphthongs is easily the most unique, most strange ideä I've ever seen.

I was trying to go for a sort of Hawai'ian feel with this one. Unfortunately, that's not really how it turned out.

Oops.
I was thinking you meant the syllable structure. Sorry. Otherwise, yeah, it's not very Hawaiian, but perhaps not permitting internal consonants could be something interesting to use in morphology.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 am

large rock, boulder →→→ castle, fortress
rocky surface →→→ stone used as a construction material[/b] You might want to add on some other information there (like the colour).

Yes, those are meant to be sources for a city/town name derived from "black stone castle", but I couldn't think of any interesting ealier meaning for "black".

"Black" could be original. After all, it's one of the first color terms most languages develop.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 am

type, version, variety →→→ suffix indicating a word is the name of a language On one hand, this is attested in the Germanic languages. On the other, it took quite a few steps to get there (type suffix → place of origin suffix → nationality suffix → language suffix). The best thing to do here is likely to give it a concurrent meaning in which it denotes nationality.

What about "way [of doing things]² as the earlier meaning? It could have gone through a stage when it meant something like "dialect". The idea is to derive it from something like "the way we speak as opposed to the way those people over there speak".

That could work, but I would expect the word to continue to also mean dialect.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 am

Proto-3 and its descendents:
own (direction) →→→ valley, glen The verb "own", used as a command, shouldn't produce anything except a grammatical particle or a command. Something like "that which I own" will probably get you there, but only if the society is a feudal society.

Sorry, my bad. When I copied and pasted this somewhere in preparation for posting it here, my cursor missed the initial <d>. I meant to have "down" as a direction turn into "valley, glen".

Oh, then that'd be the same as "mountain" (down+place or similar)

Das Public Viewing wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:51 am I just had an ideä: howabout I convert your tables to IPA?

Wow, that's great! Thank you very much! I might end up redoing D6, though.

Another plausibility question: I've made this list of possible etymological derivations for people's given birthnames. Do you think that they are plausible? Or unlikely? For the record, by the time my main conhistory takes place, these are generally very old, long established names, and in most of my concultures, divergent sound changes have created a situation in which people don't really associate names with their original meanings anymore, and these meanings are, if at all, mainly known to a few scholars. My conplanet doesn't have the internet yet, so parents can't just type potential names into search angines to look up their meanings. Children are usually named after other people. And since these names all started out as names given at birth, I've tried to limit the use of personal traits that would only become known later in the child's life, although parents might sometimes express their hopes for what traits the child will develop.



[unusually] dark-skinned
[unusually] light-skinned
Arrow
Bear-like animal
Bee-like insect
Born [shortly] after the earthquake
Born after the miraculous escape [from a great danger]
Born at noon
Born during [an unusually long period of] rain
Born during [an unusually long] drought
Born during a journey
Born during a thunderstorm
Born during the dry deason
Born during the harvest
Born during the midsummer holiday
Born during the midwinter holiday
Born during the rainy season
Born during/after a flood
Born early in the morning
Born in early summer
Born in early summer
Born in fall
Born in late summer
Born in spring
Born in summer
Born in the early afternoon
Born in the evening
Born in the late afternoon
Born in the middle of the night
Born in winter
Born late in the morning
Born under a good star
Brother of [several older] sisters
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] careful/meticulous hand
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] fast runner
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] great fisher
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] great healer
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] great hunter
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] great preparer of traps
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] great singer
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] great warrior
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] lyre player
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] recorder player
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] skilled drummer
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] skilled handler of horses
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] skilled tracker
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] strong person
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] talented helmsman/helmswoman
Child of [an adult who had earned the nickname] wise/knowledgeable person
Child of a group/village/tribal leader
Child of a potter
Child of a priest/cleric/shaman
Child of a smith
Child of a stranger [living in the village]
Child of a weaver
Child of one of the long-faced people [who presumably had somehow ended up living among non-long-faced people]
Child of one of the painted people [who presumably had somehow ended up living among non-painted people]
Cloud [often used as a metaphor for bad things in English, but in early agricultural societies, that might not necessarily be the case]
Crow/raven-like bird
Dedicated to [a respected ancestor whose name can be taken from elsewhere on this list]
Dedicated to a god/goddess of a buffalo-like animal
Dedicated to a god/goddess of a leopard/jaguar-like animal
Dedicated to a god/goddess of a wolf-like animal
Dedicated to a god/goddess of cats
Dedicated to a god/goddess of copper and those who work it
Dedicated to a god/goddess of crabs
Dedicated to a god/goddess of deer
Dedicated to a god/goddess of fertility
Dedicated to a god/goddess of fire
Dedicated to a god/goddess of flowers
Dedicated to a god/goddess of grass
Dedicated to a god/goddess of healing
Dedicated to a god/goddess of hunting
Dedicated to a god/goddess of lizards
Dedicated to a god/goddess of mining
Dedicated to a god/goddess of monkeys
Dedicated to a god/goddess of spiders
Dedicated to a god/goddess of the forest
Dedicated to a god/goddess of the mountains
Dedicated to a god/goddess of the sea
Dedicated to a god/goddess of war
Dedicated to a god/goddess of water
Dedicated to a god/goddess of weaving
Dedicated to a god/goddess of wisdom
Dedicated to a monotheistic god/goddess
Dedicated to a patron god/goddess of a nation/tribe/ethnic group
Dedicated to a trickster god/goddess
Difficult birth
Difficult year
Eagle
Earlyborn
Enerald
Fierce
Fifthborn
Firstborn
Five years [after the parents‘ wedding or the birth of their firstborn]
Fortunate/blessed one
Four years [after the parents‘ wedding or the birth of their firstborn]
Fourthborn
Fulfilled wish
Gift of [a respected ancestor whose name can be taken from elsewhere on this list]
Gift of a god/goddes of fire
Gift of a god/goddes of healing
Gift of a god/goddess of a buffalo-like animal
Gift of a god/goddess of a leopard/jaguar-like animal
Gift of a god/goddess of a wolf-like animal
Gift of a god/goddess of cats
Gift of a god/goddess of copper and those who work it
Gift of a god/goddess of crabs
Gift of a god/goddess of deer
Gift of a god/goddess of fertility
Gift of a god/goddess of flowers
Gift of a god/goddess of grass
Gift of a god/goddess of hunting
Gift of a god/goddess of lizards
Gift of a god/goddess of mining
Gift of a god/goddess of monkeys
Gift of a god/goddess of spiders
Gift of a god/goddess of the forest
Gift of a god/goddess of the mountains
Gift of a god/goddess of the sea
Gift of a god/goddess of war
Gift of a god/goddess of water
Gift of a god/goddess of weaving
Gift of a god/goddess of wisdom
Gift of a monotheistic god/goddess
Gift of a patron god/goddess of a nation/tribe/ethnic group
Gift of a trickster god/goddess
Gift/blessing
Gold
Green eyes
Hope
Incisor
Joy/enjoyable thing
Light
Lion/lioness
Little one
Loud Roar
Mercy
One year [after the parents' wedding or the birth of their firstborn]
Pleasant smell
Precious, highly valued
Rain
Ruby
Secondborn
Seventhborn
Silver
Sister of [several older] brothers
Sixtborn
Sky
Snake
Spear
Species of bat
Species of flower [1]
Species of flower [2]
Species of flower [3]
Species of flower [4]
Species of songbird [1]
Species of songbird [2]
Species of songbird [3]
Species of tree [1]
Species of tree [2]
Species of tree [3]
Species of tree [4]
Species of tree [5]
Star
Strong heart
Strong lungs
Sturdy, durable, capable of enduring hardship or pressure
Sun
Surprise
Sweet/sweetness
Sword
Thirdborn
Three years [after the parents' wedding or the birth of their firstborn]
Two years [after the parents' wedding or the birth of their firstborn]
Type of berry [1]
Type of berry [2]
Type of spice/herb [1]
Type of spice/herb [2]
Type of spice/herb [3]
Type of spice/herb [4]
Victory
Year full of blessings
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] cat
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] fast runner
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] little monkey
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] the cheeky one
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] the curious one
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] the hungry one
Younger sibling of [a child nicknamed] the quiet/shy one

Das Public Viewing wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:51 am Why is "r" blue?
English "r" varies depending on dialect, and sometimes idiolect. People can have basically anything from /ɻ/ (retroflex) to /ɹ̙/ (postalveolar coronal) to even /ɹ̘/ (dental), and I've been told Received Pronunciation has a tapped /ɾ/ like Spanish (I'm not sure if that's actually true though). Basically, the symbol, if you're using English "r" (sometimes known as "bunched r"), is written as /ɹ/ usually, but where it goes in the table might change. The regular /r/ is reserved for trilled "r"s like Russian or Italian, or like in Spanish perro /pero/.
German has /ʀ/ as the historically "correct" version, but /ʁ~ʕ~ɐ̯/ as what most people say nowadays, so if you wanted that, it's uvular. I used the historical version here because I don't need the westonruler keyboard to type it, but the new one goes in the same place.

[pedant mode]
The varieties of sounds you are describing are phones (actual sounds), and should be written with brackets: [ɹ ~ ɹ̙] for English, [ʀ ~ ʁ] and [ɐ̯] for German, [r] for Italian or Russian, [ɾ] for Spanish pero (it used to be the case in some contexts Received Pronunciation but is very old-fashioned and almost extinct).

Slashes are used for phonemes, that is, sounds that can make a contrast in a given language. For instance, English has [ɹ] but nothing like [r], and anyway, there can't be a contrast between a word with [ɹ] and a word with [r] (some foreign speakers use [r] instead of [r] but they can be understood anyway). There's only one r-like phoneme in English, and we might as well write it /r/ (and most dictionaries indeed use /r/ in their pronunciation guide). A same phoneme may have several allophones if its precise realization is different based on context: for instance, German /r/ is usually [ʁ] at the beginning of a syllable but [ɐ̯] at the end.

Our host talks about it in the Language Construction Kit. There's a primer here: http://www.zompist.com/kitlong.html#sounds (look for "Phones, phonemes, and allophones".)
[/pedant mode]

@Raphael, your name etymologies are fine.

Theophoric names are extremely coming (the bulk of Semitic names are of this type, and they were also common in Germanic: Gottfried, Godiva < Godgifu, Thorketill, etc.). Names meaning specifically "gift of god" or "blessed by god" are the bread and butter of Canaanitic names (e.g., Yanaton "YHWH gives" and Hanniba'al "may Ba'al bless him," respectively). Names regarding dedication to a god or saint are common in Semitic (Obadiah "servant of YHWH," Abdul "servant of God") and Irish (Mael Muire, "devotee of Mary").

Animal names are extremely common in European languages (Björn, Wulf, Cuchulain). They also occur in Semitic (Ariel) and probably virtually all languages.

Names relating to the circumstances of birth are common in European languages (Octavius, "eighth born").

Physical traits, both positive (Belle) and negative (Cameron "crooked nose," Calvin "bald"), are common the world over.

Patronymic and teknonymic names are common the world over.

Gemstone names are found in English (Pearl, Ruby) and other European languages (Marguerite, "pearl"), as well as Semitic and other languages.

Fruits (Fraser < "strawberry") and spices (Rosemary, Pepper) are common enough.

I think that covers most of the etymologies you listed...If it's not clear, I'm mostly familiar with names from Europe and Canaan. But I'm sure you could find examples of virtually all of these in other places as well.

Zaarin wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:19 pm @Raphael, your name etymologies are fine.

Theophoric names are extremely coming (the bulk of Semitic names are of this type, and they were also common in Germanic: Gottfried, Godiva < Godgifu, Thorketill, etc.). Names meaning specifically "gift of god" or "blessed by god" are the bread and butter of Canaanitic names (e.g., Yanaton "YHWH gives" and Hanniba'al "may Ba'al bless him," respectively). Names regarding dedication to a god or saint are common in Semitic (Obadiah "servant of YHWH," Abdul "servant of God") and Irish (Mael Muire, "devotee of Mary").

Animal names are extremely common in European languages (Björn, Wulf, Cuchulain). They also occur in Semitic (Ariel) and probably virtually all languages.

Names relating to the circumstances of birth are common in European languages (Octavius, "eighth born").

Physical traits, both positive (Belle) and negative (Cameron "crooked nose," Calvin "bald"), are common the world over.

Patronymic and teknonymic names are common the world over.

Gemstone names are found in English (Pearl, Ruby) and other European languages (Marguerite, "pearl"), as well as Semitic and other languages.

Fruits (Fraser < "strawberry") and spices (Rosemary, Pepper) are common enough.

I think that covers most of the etymologies you listed...If it's not clear, I'm mostly familiar with names from Europe and Canaan. But I'm sure you could find examples of virtually all of these in other places as well.

Thank you!

Next, a few possible etymological derivations of place names. As usual, my question is how plausible or implausible these are.



Nations
Distant land
Forest land/kingdom
Kingdom of the cunning/clever people
Land/kingdom of the cowards [the people who coined the name didn‘t call themselves cowards; they called the people whose land they conquered cowards]
Mountains of a fairy-like mythological creature
Rabbit/hare hills


Places
[named in honor of a famous leader whose name can be taken from the list of personal names]
[personal name]‘s mill
[surname]‘s farm
[surname]‘s meadow
Black stone castle
Buffalo-like animal‘s head
Buffalo-like animal‘s meadow
Deer forest ford
Edge of the swamp
Flower meadow
Gift of [name of ruler]
Grey stone bridge
Hill slope [neighborhood]
Many fishes
Marsh of a species of songbird [4]
New farm
Old farm
Old species of tree [5]
On three hills
Owl-like bird‘s nest
River of a particular species of fish
Rivermouth of the opaque river
Riverside [neighborhood]
Safe/protected bay
Species of tree [3] bridge
Stormy tip of peninsula
Type of fruit orchard junction
Valley/glen of the lake of a species of aquatic rodent

Edit: removed a rather embarrassing first draft of Proto-1 that is probably best forgotten.

Lumpipkirgklúnp
Zhrintprerpblúlg
Lumpipkirgklúnp
Krilgkrâltblulg

Well... it's a distinctive style, at least...

My initial reaction is that your syllables are too heavy and repetitive... that's a lot of CRVRC. And of course when you put syllables together you get lots of 4-consonant clusters (Krilgkrâltblulg).

The syllables in gen, like the phonemes, will be used less as you go down the list. It kind of looks like you listed the CRVRC syllables before CVC or CRVC so you're getting too many of them. Another trick you can use is to list a syllable type more than once so you get more of it.

It seems that you can end words in -nC but not in -n or -m? Seems odd.

I'm not sure the long vowels work well with the very heavy syllables (e.g. drōmp). I'd be tempted to make length one of the possible R's, so you never get two consonants after a long vowel.

Also, I dunno, I feel like many words don't fit their referents. Frarp seems like a weird name for a cat, and I don't know that I'd worship a prelp. Tumb doesn't sound quiet, it sounds noisy. This is a matter of taste and probably our native languages, so take it with a grain of salt. At the least, think about onomatopoeia for at least some words.

Sorry to be negative. You're doing a lot of things right, especially in thinking about derivation and etymology.

Also, think about posting this information elsewhere and linking it or making shorter lists per post.