Zompist Bboard Again

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

This is a spreadsheet of all known natural noun cases (at least that I could find), along with every case from my favorite conlang, Ithkuil.

I made this when I was planning a conlang which was intended specifically to have more cases than Tsez and Ithkuil, but I figured it might be handy for some of you.

I also didn't enter cases that were combinations of others, such as locative/comitative, dative/genitive, and the weird distal and non-distal forms that Tsez has of its locative cases. (Note: this has been rectified, and I put the distal case as a separate one.)

Not to discourage you, but cases don't work like that - every single case in every single language is unique, covering (and failing to cover) its own set of circumstances. A case isn't "an ablative case" or "an illative case" - those are just shorthand descriptions. Most often, the choice of a case name is rather arbitrary - based not only on extent of use, and focus of use, but also on the university the linguist works at, the language family or geographic area, and the personal whimsy of the linguist. There is therefore no list of all "known" cases, for the same reason that there is no "list of all known colours".

Similarly, all cases can theoretically be described as the combination of two or more other cases or their negation. "Locative" (which may combine things like ablative, allative, lative, perlative, prolative, inessive, adhesive, superessive, etc) is no less a combination than "locative/comitative" is.

That doesn't mean collecting a list of case names is useless - indeed, we've probably almost all done it at some point. If nothing else, it can suggest some possibilities to you. But you should be careful about thinking that it has more ontological significance than it does...

Okay. The point of it was to gather as many ideas as I could for cases, and I figured I would post it in case someone else could use it.

I guess you’re right, though. I’m still new to this conlanging thing, and I’m still learning. But it was meant to be only cases found in natural languages, not simply any possible case (which I realize is impossible to compile).

I appreciate the work that went into this. Cases are limited only by your imagination and don't fit into neat boxes, as Sal said, but your spreadsheet is useful for finding names for cases.

I still can't quite figure out the best name for Iliaqu's case meaning "about X", "on the topic of X", "with X in mind". I've called it topical, but that might lead people to assume it marks a grammatical Topic™, as that's what the abbreviation TOP practically always indicates, but it just marks a plain old semantic topic. (It can also be topicalised by fronting in the sentence, but any case can be used for that, depending on meaning.)

I think the list is helpful. I've not seen one so detailed before. Obviously cases combine multiple functions, or every language would end up with exactly the same set, but it's still helpful to have ideas about what sort of attested case functions there are. Even if you don't end up using any of the more obscure cases in your languages, a list like this can make you think about how that function might be expressed: is it one function of a more widely applicable case, or do you need a preposition, or what?

Imralu wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:21 am I appreciate the work that went into this. Cases are limited only by your imagination and don't fit into neat boxes, as Sal said, but your spreadsheet is useful for finding names for cases.

I still can't quite figure out the best name for Iliaqu's case meaning "about X", "on the topic of X", "with X in mind". I've called it topical, but that might lead people to assume it marks a grammatical Topic™, as that's what the abbreviation TOP practically always indicates, but it just marks a plain old semantic topic. (It can also be topicalised by fronting in the sentence, but any case can be used for that, depending on meaning.)

Just use the stem of any Latin verb that means 'to discuss [a topic]': dissertive, collative, tractative, maybe communicative.

Some of these have such fine distinctions in meaning that one wonders if they're not entirely synonymous. Like "lative" vs. "allative". I use "allative" to mean "to, toward, into, -ward" depending on the context; it seems to me that "lative" is just a more neutral term.

Of course I agree that case definitions are not so clear-cut. In some languages, there's really no way to effectively describe certain cases semantically, like the Greek genitive and dative. Historically you can account for their disparate functions by describing how they absorbed other more semantically delineated cases, but ultimately there's no one unifying "meaning" to them.

Although I do find it a fascinating topic to try and determine the semantics of why cases are used in unusual ways. For example, what makes a Latin verb take a dative direct object? In my conlang, dative direct objects are common with verbs like "obey", "listen", "believe", etc. verbs that describe some kind of deference on the subject's part.

Oh, absolutely. Many languages don't bother making those distinctions, but some do. If you want to distinguish allative, lative, and inlative, be my guest, but the same thing can basically be summed up with lative if you don't want to distinguish them. And almost all languages merge vialis and prolative, if they even have it at all.

And I appreciate all the feedback! I'm working on adding the cases that I omitted.

Ser wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:49 am

Imralu wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:21 am I appreciate the work that went into this. Cases are limited only by your imagination and don't fit into neat boxes, as Sal said, but your spreadsheet is useful for finding names for cases.

I still can't quite figure out the best name for Iliaqu's case meaning "about X", "on the topic of X", "with X in mind". I've called it topical, but that might lead people to assume it marks a grammatical Topic™, as that's what the abbreviation TOP practically always indicates, but it just marks a plain old semantic topic. (It can also be topicalised by fronting in the sentence, but any case can be used for that, depending on meaning.)

Just use the stem of any Latin verb that means 'to discuss [a topic]': dissertive, collative, tractative, maybe communicative.

And for those that never learn Latin like me? (In Indonesian, there is no such thing as learning Latin. They're already burdened with learning their own native languages (not on school, except coincides with local lingua franca), local lingua franca language(sometimes), Indonesian, and English).

jupiter: Wow, extremely cool of you.

Salmoneus: Thanks.

I appreciate what Salmoneus is saying inasmuch as I can but it seems to me that what Jupiter has done is useful. When I look at glosses by language scientists, they use just these cases for all kinds of languages. It's not so very idiosyncratic. But maybe what S says is right. Still, that's been my experience.

I don't end up working with languages that have a lot of noun cases much. No, wait, I do. Sumerian and Hiligaynon have hella (many) noun cases. Otherwise, it's not a hieroglyphic writing system nor Ancient Biblical Language thang (thing). I've been "on vacation" as a scholar the last year, and my language of choice, 1600s Massachusett, is not rich in noun cases, either. My feature or preference is actually polysynthesis, which 1600s Massachusett seems to have some of. Otherwise, though, I'm Finnish (finished) with noun cases.

I like to add odd ones to my conlangs from time to time, though. Otherwise, I wouldn't be making much use of my books.

Something like this is quite useful for generating "I never thought to mark that" thoughts and putting a name to it.

Akangka wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:54 pm

Ser wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:49 amJust use the stem of any Latin verb that means 'to discuss [a topic]': dissertive, collative, tractative, maybe communicative.

And for those that never learn Latin like me? (In Indonesian, there is no such thing as learning Latin. They're already burdened with learning their own native languages (not on school, except coincides with local lingua franca), local lingua franca language(sometimes), Indonesian, and English).

Yes, the irony of the tone in which I said that ("just use Latin") did not escape me. Indonesia is not special: almost nobody knows Latin these days. And yet that's how case names are created.