Zompist Bboard Again

In this conworld, there would be no clean break between pheremones/pheremone-like communication, animal/animal-like communication. and more complex language.
There would be a common set of 'morphemes' between all creatures, like 'pain', 'light' and 'grow' perhaps. And the more complex the creature, the more complex the language built on the simpler language that preceded it in evolution.
Sapient creatures in this world would have an instinctual (Edit: and conscious) understanding of most of what other creatures were 'saying', along with an understanding that the 'common language' can be used in different ways.

I like this idea. Not sure how defensible it is but who cares.

I'm not sure how this differs from the real world?

Most humans, for instance, are in very little doubt about what a dog seems to be saying at any given moment...

In practice, non-written human language works like that too.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:34 am I'm not sure how this differs from the real world?

Most humans, for instance, are in very little doubt about what a dog seems to be saying at any given moment...

We still in the real world have a difference between pheromone communication and verbal communication.

But what if there is no subconscious, (in our world) pheromone signal for "I love you" distinct from a conscious, 'linguistic' word for 'love'?

I think a world without subconscious would be so different that beings with a subconscious couldn't understand it or imagine it.

Is linguistic ability inherited within the DNA of each animal? Can some animals be born already able to speak? Can some animals speak fluently with other animals? Are there groups of species that evolved exactly the same language so they could more easily cohabit?

I like it, and there's a lot of room to grow.

Ooh, could make it rather difficult for anyone to reasonably be a carnivore with enough thought about what they were doing...perhaps you should consider investing heavily in designing protein-heavy plants?

Pedant wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:29 am Ooh, could make it rather difficult for anyone to reasonably be a carnivore with enough thought about what they were doing...perhaps you should consider investing heavily in designing protein-heavy plants?

I'm not sure how to solve this problem in any way that's palatable to humans I'm sorry. I was thinking that the equivalents of plant signalling and pheromones would also be a part.
In our world we have the exact same thing going on, we are just not (as) aware of it. Or It depends on how you look at things, I guess.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:13 am Is linguistic ability inherited within the DNA of each animal? Can some animals be born already able to speak?

Maybe there is no separation between DNA and memory. Maybe the analogue of DNA is different.

Can some animals speak fluently with other animals? Are there groups of species that evolved exactly the same language so they could more easily cohabit?

Yes and maybe

Hyolobrika wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:33 am I'm not sure how to solve this problem in any way that's palatable to humans I'm sorry. I was thinking that the equivalents of plant signalling and pheromones would also be a part.
In our world we have the exact same thing going on, we are just not (as) aware of it. Or It depends on how you look at things, I guess.

Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable way, two of them in fact.
The first is to have there be some sort of synthetic organism that's providing the pheromones, a virus or suchlike of which a side-effect might be to be hyper-sensitive to other creatures' secretions AND to recognize the chemicals within based on how much time you spend with those creatures. (Which in turn would mean some animals are easier to understand than others, and that you need to spend a while with the organisms in order to "understand" them.)
The second, actually used by Isaac Asimov in a short story, would be to have the whole planet as a giant super-organism, and to have sessile and motile organisms coexisting within using specific combinations. The sessile organisms, for example, might provide some form of fruity appendage to motile organisms, and signal them as to where to put them. In return, the sessile organisms might get dibs when it comes to decomposing animals. The pheromones might also be used to control populations and stop them from getting beyond what's practical for the environment, eliminating the need for predators. Bonus points if the two are actually different generations of the same organism (but that's an idea I'm using for a story of my own).
A thought about this world of yours: would anyone be able to lie using this system?

We eat whales and dolphins, which are known to have languages .... any sea animal would likely have a language inaudible to human ears, so I'd say at least there'd be some situations similar to what we have today , but a lot depends on what you want to do....Maybe humans have retained instincts left over from the long ago era of marine life and therefore can communicate even with sea life.

If I was doing something similar - and of course you're free to do what you like - I think I'd leave out the pheremones part. But I like the idea of a hierarchy of linguistic ability: where some species can just use single words, others can combine them to only a limited extent, and still others have complex syntax - and where all species use, or are capable of using, the same words, with which even species on different points on the hierarchy communicate with one another.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:29 am We eat whales and dolphins

We consume whale products or at least used to, we don't eat them.
We accidentally catch dolphins in nets made for tuna, we don't eat them.

Edit: haha, anglocentric ignorance

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:17 pm If I was doing something similar - and of course you're free to do what you like - I think I'd leave out the pheremones part. But I like the idea of a hierarchy of linguistic ability: where some species can just use single words, others can combine them to only a limited extent, and still others have complex syntax - and where all species use, or are capable of using, the same words, with which even species on different points on the hierarchy communicate with one another.

Honestly that sounds like a semi-conlang I was experimenting with for Zootopia, where different families of mammals all had their own "biological language" that was possible for others to learn, but difficult. And then the "natural" languages would in fact be creoles of all the other languages, something used when the animals banded together.
Bit off-topic, though.

I don't know about dolphins, but Japanese, Faroese, Chukchi and Eskimo-Aleut peoples all eat whale, and many other cultures used to before modern bans on whale hunting.

Hyolobrika wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:27 pm

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:29 am We eat whales and dolphins

We consume whale products or at least used to, we don't eat them.
We accidentally catch dolphins in nets made for tuna, we don't eat them.

Some countries, including Japan, still hunt and eat whales.

Pedant wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:29 am Ooh, could make it rather difficult for anyone to reasonably be a carnivore with enough thought about what they were doing...perhaps you should consider investing heavily in designing protein-heavy plants?

Or more simply, ignoring what the herbivore is saying and just eat it.

Akangka wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:01 pm

Pedant wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:29 am Ooh, could make it rather difficult for anyone to reasonably be a carnivore with enough thought about what they were doing...perhaps you should consider investing heavily in designing protein-heavy plants?

Or more simply, ignoring what the herbivore is saying and just eat it.

Yeah - humans are quite capable of killing other humans, particularly if they convince themselves that certain sorts of human are somehow "lesser", so the fact that the prey can talk wouldn't necessarily put predators off. Particularly if the prey creatures were the ones with the less complicated language.

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:57 pm

Akangka wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:01 pm

Pedant wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:29 am Ooh, could make it rather difficult for anyone to reasonably be a carnivore with enough thought about what they were doing...perhaps you should consider investing heavily in designing protein-heavy plants?

Or more simply, ignoring what the herbivore is saying and just eat it.

Yeah - humans are quite capable of killing other humans, particularly if they convince themselves that certain sorts of human are somehow "lesser", so the fact that the prey can talk wouldn't necessarily put predators off. Particularly if the prey creatures were the ones with the less complicated language.

Which is very plausible since predators tend to be smarter than prey. (It's not a perfect one-to-one correlation--e.g., baleen whales are a noteworthy exception of a highly intelligent herbivore--but it's a trend anyway.)