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Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:51 am
by Owain
A while back, I learned that it used to be a practise in English to indicate more, uh, complex relations by prefixing "Welsh" to simpler ones - eg a "first cousin once removed" who was a parent's cousin would be a "Welsh aunt" or "Welsh uncle".
Yesterday, while trying to trace Napoleonic guardianship law (my mind leads me weird places) I discovered that "brother-german" and "sister-german" used to be terms for full siblings when it was felt necessary to distinguish.
Does anyone know why those terms specifically were used, or of similar cases in English or other languages?
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:24 am
by Ryan of Tinellb
I've not heard of the Welsh one, but german in this sense has nothing to do with the German people. It's cognate with (wheat-)germ and germinate.
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:54 am
by Owain
Ryan of Tinellb wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:24 am
I've not heard of the Welsh one, but
german in this sense has nothing to do with the
German people. It's cognate with (wheat-)germ and germinate.
Ah, thank you, that makes more sense. My mistake.
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:53 am
by Linguoboy
“Dutch uncle” is a colloquial Americanism for someone who isn’t a blood relative at all but is treated similarly due to his closeness with one’s parents.
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:24 am
by mèþru
The ethnic term Welsh comes from a Germanic root meaning a foreigner, so it may derive directly from that instead of having anything to do with the Welsh either.
I got nothing for "Dutch uncle"
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:27 am
by mèþru
Going to Wikipedia, they give a different meaning which I'm more familiar with: "a person who issues frank, harsh or severe comments and criticism to educate, encourage or admonish someone. Thus, a "Dutch uncle" is the reverse of what is normally thought of as avuncular or uncle-like (indulgent and permissive)."
this comes from the early modern emnity between the Dutch Republic and the Kingdom of England, which where the English culture gets a lot of insulting terms and stereotypes involving the Dutch, like "Dutch courage"
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:01 am
by Salmoneus
"Dutch" often just means anything evil, or the opposite of what is natural. A Dutch auction, for example, is an auction conducted in reverse (price starts high and gets lower).
"Welsh" can mean something confusing, weird or stupid - so, a synonym for "Irish"*. So it's not that surprising it might be used for a relationship that's like being an uncle but is more complicated...
*one meaning wiktionary doesn't have for 'Irish': "an imaginary item lacking friction, deformation, etc". An Irish rope doesn't stretch, an Irish pulley has no friction, etc.
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:58 am
by anxi
Owain wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:51 am
A while back, I learned that it used to be a practise in English to indicate more, uh, complex relations by prefixing "Welsh" to simpler ones - eg a "first cousin once removed" who was a parent's cousin would be a "Welsh aunt" or "Welsh uncle".
Yesterday, while trying to trace Napoleonic guardianship law (my mind leads me weird places) I discovered that "brother-german" and "sister-german" used to be terms for full siblings when it was felt necessary to distinguish.
Does anyone know why those terms specifically were used, or of similar cases in English or other languages?
Not a kinship term, but in Polish there's a colloquial construction „ruski (tydzień|miesiąc|rok)”, i.e. “Russian <period of time>”, often used in the meaning of “a long time”, but also specifically as “a period of time roughly the length of the given, but longer”.
(The rationale is that in Orthodox countries, like Russia, the Julian calendar was commonly used, which made the current month or year last longer there than in Poland.)
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:04 am
by Ryusenshi
Owain wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:51 amYesterday, while trying to trace Napoleonic guardianship law (my mind leads me weird places) I discovered that "brother-german" and "sister-german" used to be terms for full siblings when it was felt necessary to distinguish.
French still has
cousin germain and
cousine germaine for "first cousin" (as opposed to more distant relatives).
But this may not be a true example: these words
germain/german (as well as
germane) come from the Latin
germānus meaning "brotherly", and
appear to be unrelated to Germans.
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:52 pm
by RichardFromMarple
Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:01 am
"Dutch" often just means anything evil, or the opposite of what is natural. A Dutch auction, for example, is an auction conducted in reverse (price starts high and gets lower).
"Welsh" can mean something confusing, weird or stupid - so, a synonym for "Irish"*. So it's not that surprising it might be used for a relationship that's like being an uncle but is more complicated...
*one meaning wiktionary doesn't have for 'Irish': "an imaginary item lacking friction, deformation, etc". An Irish rope doesn't stretch, an Irish pulley has no friction, etc.
a lot of Irish prefixes are due to them having a reputation for well meaning incompetence or lacking in sophistication.
Re: Ethnic terms in kinship terms
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:31 am
by Yiuel Raumbesrairc
Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:04 am
Owain wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:51 amYesterday, while trying to trace Napoleonic guardianship law (my mind leads me weird places) I discovered that "brother-german" and "sister-german" used to be terms for full siblings when it was felt necessary to distinguish.
French still has
cousin germain and
cousine germaine for "first cousin" (as opposed to more distant relatives).
But this may not be a true example: these words
germain/german (as well as
germane) come from the Latin
germānus meaning "brotherly", and
appear to be unrelated to Germans.
Then, you have
cousin à la mode de Bretagne for some obscur type of cousin. (Child of a
cousin germain, it seems.)
And then you have the jocular expression
cousins français for Quebeckers speaking about the Hex French, but it's the opposite of the OP.