Zompist Bboard Again

From: http://verduria.org/viewtopic.php?p=10168#p10169

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:52 amI just logged in to post this question:

What are some ways other natlangs (or conlangs) construct the meaning "except for"? Like, in Swedish we say "for-beyond" (förutom) and in Finnish we have an unanalyzable word (paitsi) for that, but you can also phrase it as "other as" (muuta kuin). And does this have any interesting effects on the syntax of the given language?

Syntactic exception is rarely addressed in conlangland, so I figured it'd be good to open a separate thread for it.

I'll address both the preposition and the subordinator conjunction (as in "I told her everything except that I had read the book"). Note that my coverage of languages other than Spanish is certainly missing adequate usage notes and might be missing some less common prepositions.

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First, some gloss abbreviations I'll use in this post that are not part of the Leipzig Rules' inventory.

COS change of state
EMPH emphasis
IMPF imperfect
NEUT neuter
PRET preterite
SUB subordinator

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Spanish

Prepositions:
- excepto. Etymology: from Latin exceptō, participle in the neuter ablative singular of the verb excipiō 'to take sth out'. Usage: the most common preposition.
- a excepción de. Etymology: from Latin ad 'to' + exceptiōnem 'exception' + dē 'from'->'of'. Usage: higher registers.
- menos. Etymology: from Latin minus 'less', comparative adverb formed from the adjective minor 'smaller'. Usage: very common, like excepto.
- salvo. Etymology: derived from the Latin adjective salvus 'safe' in a neuter singular form. Usage: higher registers, uncommon.
- aparte de. Etymology: from Latin ad + partem 'part' + de. Usage: common.

Syntactically, the first four are simply prepositions in the general case-less Indo-European style. Excepto ella 'except for her', todo menos los sofás 'everything except the sofas'.

There is also the pseudo-preposition exceptuando 'excluding, notwithstanding', which is really just the verb exceptuar 'to exclude' in the gerund form.

It is also worth mentioning that it is common to use the negative indefinite pronouns nadie 'nobody' and nada 'nothing' with más que 'other than' (etymologically from Latin magis 'more' + Latin quam 'than') to express exceptions. Example: nadie más que tú 'nobody other than you' (nobody except you). Note that together they do not form a whole noun phrase, but rather there has been some reduction of redundant repetition of the verb in an infinitive form.

No hizo nada más que (hacer) el almuerzo.
not do-3S.PRET nothing more than do-INF ART.M lunch
'He didn't do anything except (do) lunch.'


Conjunctions:
- excepto que. Etymology: excepto + Latin quod 'because'->'(general subordinator)'. Usage: very common.
- menos que. Etymology: menos + Latin quod. Usage: uncommon but neutral in register.
- salvo que. Etymology: salvo + Latin quod. Usage: uncommon and high in register.

They take the indicative if they mean 'except that', but take the subjunctive if they mean 'unless' (with the meaning 'unless', you also say a menos que and a salvo que, adding the preposition a).

Le dije todo excepto que sí había leído el libro.
3S.DAT say-1S.PRET everything except SUB EMPH have-1S.IMPF read-PTCP the book
'I told her everything except that I had in fact read the book.'

El evento continúa excepto que venga el presidente.
the event continue-3S.PRES except SUB come-3S.SBJV the president
'The event is going on unless the president comes.'


Excepto may also combine with cuando (excepto cuando) to express "except when".

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Latin

Equivalents of the English preposition:
- exceptus. Literally 'taken out', from ex 'out' + captus 'taken' (participle of capiō 'to take'). Usage: this is actually a participle agreeing in gender, number and case with the thing excepted (which is then in the ablative case, forming an "ablative absolute"), and is usually used with positive (non-negated) verbs.
- praeter. Etymology: PIE preh2i 'before' + PIE -ter- 'contrastive suffix' (expresses that one thing is something as opposed to another). Usage: usually used with negated verbs, followed by a noun phrase in the accusative case.
- extrā. Etymology: from pre-Latin exterā (parte) 'with outside part', ultimately from PIE h1eǵhs 'out' + PIE -ter-. Usage: less common than the previous two.

Omnēs exceptīs vōbīs duābus vēnērunt.
all.NOM.PL taken.out.ABL.PL 2P.ABL two.F.ABL come.PRF-3P
'Everybody came except for you two (women).'

Nēmō praeter vōs duās vēnit.
nobody.NOM except 2P.ACC two.F.ACC come.PRF-3S
'Nobody came except for you two (women).'


Conjunctions:
- exceptō quod. Usage: usually used with positive verbs.
- praeter quod. Usage: usually used with negated verbs.

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Mandarin

Adpositions:
- 除了 chu2le (preposition).
- 除了......以外 chu2le...yi3wai4 (circumposition).
- 除了......之外 chu2le...zhi1wai4 (circumposition).
- 除......外 chu2...wai4 (circumposition).
- 除 chu2. Used mostly in expressions in abbreviated language, notably 除此 chu2 ci3 'except for this'.

Etymologies of the morphemes:
- 除 chu2. From Classical Chinese 'to remove'.
- 了 le. I don't know which historical origin of 了 this has, but confer with the preposition 為了 wei4le 'for, for the purpose of; in order to'.
- 以 yi3. From Classical Chinese 'to take', already a preposition meaning 'with' in the Classical language. In Mandarin it has combined with certain ancient adverbs to form the postpositions 以前 yi3qian2 'before' and 以後 yi3hou4 'after' as well as the conjunction 以及 yi3ji2 'and (very formal)'.
- 之 zhi1. From the Classical Chinese genitive particle ~ relativizer. It has combined with certain ancient adverbs to form the postpositions 之間 zhi1jian1 'between', 之前 zhi1qian2 'before', 之後 zhi1hou4 'after', 之中 zhi1zhong1 'during' and others.
- 外 wai4. From Classical Chinese 'outside'.

Syntactically they're always used in Mandarin's default position for adpositional phrases (between the subject and the verb, or before the subject).

除榮譽外一切都喪失了。
chu2 rong2yu4 wai4 yi4qie1 dou1 sang4shi1 le
except honour except everything all lose COS
'All has been lost except for [our] honour.'


All the adpositions can also be used as conjunctions meaning 'except that', taking a clause.

It is worth noting that 'except that' is often expressed by a juxtaposed sentence with the adverb 只是 zhi3shi4 'just, only'. (This is also rather true of English as well, isn't it?) All three examples come from the LINE dictionary. Etymologically, 只 zhi3 has had the meaning 'only' since ancient times (attested since the Late Han dynasty), and 是 is an ancient copula (it was originally a proximal demonstrative but it gained copular usage in the Han dynasty).

這可以用，只是太長了。
zhe4 ke3yi3 yong4, zhi3shi4 tai4 chang2 le
this can use, only too long EMPH
'This could be used, [but] it is just too long.' (except that it is too long, if only it weren't so long)

什麼都好, 只是我們離銀幕太近了。
shen2me dou1 hao3, zhi3shi4 wo3men li2 yin2mu4 tai4 jin4 le
what all good, just 1-PL from screen too close EMPH
'Everything is good, we are just too close to the screen.' (except that we are too close to the screen)

我對他一無所知，只知道他住在隔壁。
wo3 dui4 ta1 yi4wu2suo3zhi1, zhi3 zhi1dao4 ta1 zhu4 zai4 ge2bi4
1S about 3S not.know.single.thing, only know 3S live in next.door
'I don't know a single thing about him. I only know that he lives next door.' (except that he lives next door)

In German, it's außer, which literally means something like 'outside of' (although that would be außerhalb von in modern German at least). But anyway, it's very transparently related to außen 'on the outside', and both are ultimately from aus 'out'. Außer as a preposition takes an object in the dative case, which is basically the default case for prepositional objects in German, or a complement clause as in English (außer dass 'except that', außer wenn 'except if/when').

Further expressions that refer to an exception that I can think of offhand are:

• abgesehen von (+ Dat.) 'apart from', literally 'offseen from/of' (also: abgesehen davon, dass ... 'apart from ... being ...')
• bis auf (+ Acc.) 'except for', literally 'up-until on' (bis itself is a contraction of Middle High German bî ze, lit. 'by to', which replaced earlier unze, cognate to English 'unto')
• mit Ausnahme von (+ Dat.) 'with the exception of', Ausnahme 'exception' being 'out-taking'

Guitarplayer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:28 pm(bis itself is a contraction of Middle High German bî ze, lit. 'by to', which replaced earlier unze, cognate to English 'unto')

TIL.

It hadn't occurred to me before how many different English expressions there are to mark out exceptions. Wiktionary lists:

apart from
bar
but
except (for)
excepting
other than
outtake
save (for)
with the exception of

I think what's particularly striking for me is that bar and barring have such different usage. I can't really think of any context where it sounds natural to substitute one for the other.

I also hadn't considered how difficult it can be to find a good equivalent in Irish or how opaque many of the expressions are. Cé is moite de is pretty close in meaning, but doesn't seem to be used much. I've got no idea what moite represents; it's not used outside of this expression and I suspect i might be a historical contraction. (Cf. miste < measa de "worse from".) It also bears some resemblance to diomaite de which can also translate "except" but more commonly means "besides", e.g. Bhí daoine diomaite díom ann "There were others [lit. "people"] apart from me there". Lasmuigh de "outside of" is also fairly close, but doesn't seems as commonly used as seachas which likewise more properly means "besides, other than".

Other equivalents:

gach lá ach Lá Fhéile Pádraig "every day but St Patrick's Day"
gach lá amach ó Lá Fhéile Pádraig "every day away from St Patrick's Day"
gach lá, fág Lá Fhéile Pádraig as "every day, leave St Patrick's Day out"

Ach "but" (often coupled with emphatic amháin) "only" is the most usual conjunction:

ach (amháin) go bhfuil an gnó dúnta "but (only) that the business is closed"

Welsh uses eithr, borrowed from Latin exterus, exterus, extrā according to GPC.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:28 pmWelsh uses eithr, borrowed from Latin exterus, exterus, extrā according to GPC.

You're misreading the entry. It says "Clt. *ekgro-..., cf. Llad. extrā, exterus". That is, "from Common Celtic *ekgro-; compare Latin extrā, exterus". The forms are presumably related through PIE but the GPC doesn't say exactly how.

Dewrad could say for sure, but I don't think eithr (or the related dieithr) are used much in contemporary Welsh, and the derived forms with initial o "from", namely oddieithr and oddigerth, are strictly literary. Another literary preposition, namyn, is most common nowadays with the meaning of "minus" (e.g. mae deg namyn wyth yn gadael dau "ten minus eight leaves two"). This appears to derive from yn am(w)yn where amwyn is the verb-noun of amygaf "I seize; I take away".

Colloquially, heblaw ("without hand") is what I more often see; as with some of the Irish examples, this can also mean "besides". And, like Irish, Welsh often uses the equivalent of "but", e.g. lladdwyd pawb ond tri "all but three were killed". Eithr also yields the verb eithriaf "I except" which can be used in verb-noun form, e.g. ac eithrio trwy gytundeb rhwng y ddwy blaid "except [lit "and excepting"] by agreement between the two parties". Another verb-noun construction is ar wahân i "on separation to", where wahân is the mutated form of the verb-noun of gwahanaf "I separate".

Ac eithrio, heblaw, oddieithr, and oddigerth can all be used as conjunctions with a verb-noun construction. Ar wahân i appears in the phrase ar wahân i'r ffaith "excepting the fact", e.g. ar wahân i'r ffaith bod rhai o gymeriadau'r llyfr yn eu harddegau eu hunain "except for the fact that some of the characters in the book are teens themselves".

Swahili has a loan from Arabic, ila, but also very commonly uses the word isipokuwa literally meaning something like "if it is not", "when it is not", "where it is not"

i- = class 9 subject prefix, "it"
-si- = tense-neutral negation used with relative syllables, "not"
-po- = relative syllable for class 16 referring to places and times "when", "where", "if" (only means "if" in the negative)
-ku- = meaningless syllable occurring in short verbs in some verb forms - prevents -po- from taking the stress here.
-w- = "be"
-a = meaningless final suffix found on all native verbs when not replaced by another suffix such as -i in the negative present tense or -e in the subjunctive.

Thanks for the examples. I've gotten some ideas on what that word could be created from, that I need to look into... As for syntax, the easiest thing would be to just use the word as any other preposition, but depending on it's etymology I might do something different. Oh, and I need to think about whether this except-clause should go after or before the main clause.

Whimemsz wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:11 pmThe etymology is eta "only" + go an emphatic particle + gaawiin "not/NEG," which itself is etymologically gaa "not/NEG" + wiin "contrastive" (which ITSELF is from the third person singular pronoun wiin).

Hah, Cornish does the opposite. "Only" is expressed as ny ... marnas which literally means "not except".

'Except' in Malayalam is -അല്ലാതെ -[əlˈlaːd̪e] and comes after a noun phrase (it's attached to nouns and pronouns) from what I can remember off the top of my head at least. അല്ലാതെ is also a word in and of itself but kind of hard to translate into English. It can mean something like 'otherwise' or 'on the contrary'. അല്ല [əlˈla] is the negative present tense copula (am not/are not/is not), and -ആതെ -[ˈaːd̪e] means 'without' when attached to a verb stem.

In Icelandic it is nema, with non-transparent etymology.

Hún hafði ekkert að lifa fyrir nema son sinn
3P.F.NOM have-PST.3S nothing-NEUT.S.ACC SUB live-INF for except son-ACC POSS.REFL.M.S.ACC
She had nothing to live for except her son

Hann hafði ekkert að gera nema borða hádegismat
3S.M.NOM have-PST.3S nothing-NEUT.S.ACC SUB do-INF except eat-INF lunch-ACC
He had nothing to do besides/except eat lunch

Another one, slightly more technical/formal is is fyrir utan on the outside of – adding the subordinator að if followed by a clause. Often used sentence-initially:

Fyrir utan heimavinnuna, er ég búinn að gera allt
For outside.of homework-ACC, be-3S 1S prepare-PTC.M.S.NOM SUB do-INF all-NEUT.S.ACC
Other than my homework, I've finished everything

vegfarandi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:50 pm In Icelandic it is nema, with non-transparent etymology.

Wiktionary indicates that it's from PG *nemaną ‘to take’, however, whence also German nehmen ‘to take’.

Apparently (according to Wiktionary) nema is still used in Icelandic for a number of uses including 'to take', 'to capture'. When I saw nema I immediately thought of German nehmen, for the record.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:55 pm Apparently (according to Wiktionary) nema is still used in Icelandic for a number of uses including 'to take', 'to capture'. When I saw nema I immediately thought of German nehmen, for the record.

að nema á brott means ‘to abduct’. Huh, I had no idea the two were related.

This is such a good thread.