Translation challenge: If you have enough teeth...

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linguistcat
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Utah, USA

Translation challenge: If you have enough teeth...

Post by linguistcat »

So friends and I were having a discussion about a dream. My friend dreamed that their very toothy character was a dentist. In response, I wrote:

"If you have enough teeth, they make you a dentist by default."

I realized that there was some ambiguity between whether the teeth themselves made one a dentist, or if some unspecified, dentist-making group of people made you a dentist once you had enough teeth. And it's an odd sentence so why not use it for a translation challenge?

Please translate both:
1) "If you have enough teeth, they [the teeth] make you a dentist by default."
2) "If you have enough teeth, they [unspecified group] make you a dentist by default."

If you have a way to keep the ambiguity as well, that would be great too!
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Nortaneous
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am

Re: Translation challenge: If you have enough teeth...

Post by Nortaneous »

Hlu: (not translating "by default" because lazy, and there probably isn't a word for dentist)

1)
Li thayu xinwa du li li yu tenthisban.
[ji tʰɔju çinβɔ ⁿdu ji ji ju tentʰisⁿbɔn]
li tha-yu xinwa n\ru li li yu tenthis-ban
if tooth-2.POSS enough 2-COP then 3.INAN 2SG dentist-COP.CAUS

2)
Li thayu xinwa du li yu tenthisaeban.
[ji tʰɔju çinβɔ ⁿdu ji ju tentʰisæⁿbɔn]
li tha-yu xinwa n\ru li yu tenthis-ae-ban
if tooth-2.POSS enough 2-COP then 2SG dentist-PASS-COP.CAUS

Generic pronoun constructions aren't common in Hlu the way they are in English, and a passive of a causative ("you are made to be a dentist") is idiomatic here, so there's no opportunity for ambiguity. The causative form of the copula is suppletive: usually there's a -ba suffix, but here yoq > ban.

Amqoli, on the other hand, does have a generic pronoun:

1)
Qarsh tsopqam du mja, dentiste meshplyumos.
[qarʃ tsoˈpχã du mdʒa ˈdẽtiste meˈʃpjumos]
qarsh tsopqam du me-a dentist-POS me-shplyu-mod-s
tooth enough 4.ERG 3I.T-have dentist 3I.T-turn_into-CAUS-3M.ABS

2)
Qarsh tsopqam du mja, dentisteg du dex shplyumodas.
[qarʃ tsoˈpχã du mdʒa ˈdẽtisteɣ du dex ʃpjuˈmoðas]
qarsh tsopqam du me-a, dentist-e-eg du dex shplyu-mod-a-s
tooth enough 4.ERG 3I.T-have dentist-POS=TOP 4.ERG 4.ABS turn_into-CAUS-3.A-3M.ABS

Qarsh is a mass noun, so doesn't take plural marking. The Amqoli generic pronoun takes third-person agreement, but is distinct from all other pronominal forms. Also, changes in topic are explicitly marked.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
akam chinjir
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Translation challenge: If you have enough teeth...

Post by akam chinjir »

I had problems similar to Nortaneous's: a conculture without dentists, and no very good idea what to do with "by default." But other points seemed worth thinking about. I decided to stay pretty close to things I've already thought about, I'm not sure how much I like the result.
nɛjəˈcɐː.wɪ məˈtɐi̯.wɛ | ˈnɐː.kɪ ʔɪˈkɐu̯ kɪˈnɐi̯ ʔɪˌsɐu̯.nəˈkiː.nə.kɪ
nai =jaca -wi matai=wai naki ikau kinai jai isaunaki=naki
WH.AN=tooth-PL reach=TOP GEN.AN then RESUM.AN CAUS healer =REDUP(INC)
Whose teeth are enough, they will make that one a healer
There's no ambiguity here; naki is clearly a generic pronoun for human beings, like nonreferential "they." To get the other meaning I think you might need to replace it with ki=jacawi those teeth.

The translation uses a correlative structure, with the resumptive pronoun kinai bound (or something) by the nai who in the topicalised clause (which here is more an indefinite pronoun). Officially nai is the bound form of the question word najai who; it hadn't occurred to me before, but it makes sense as an inalienable possessor.

Using matai go as far as for enough suits my plans, though I haven't played with it much. There's no obvious indication that it's the number of teeth that's relevant.

With a word for number, something like nai=jacawi ki number might work, but I'm not sure enough of the syntax here to to sure that the indefinite pronoun nai could still bind (or whatever) the resumptive kinai if embedded even further in the noun phrase. Maybe topicalisation would help, but the thought of topicalising an indefinite pronoun seems all wrong.

For "make that one a healer" I've been a bit sneaky, forming an inchoative from the noun isaunaki healer just as if it were a stative verb meaning be a healer. There's a more long-winded way of saying it, with wikaru mawa transform find(PFV), but here I think I like the lighter construction better.
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