Zompist Bboard Again

The Incatena pages suggest that colony ships for initial settlement of a stellar system would have about a thousand people on them. Is there anything preventing someone from putting, say, ten thousand or a million frozen fetuses on a ship and having AI raise the children when they arrive at their destination? I figure at an early stage the technology might not be there yet but by the later colonizing period would it be practical if someone wanted to try it?

I think it could be done, and my general principle is that wacky ideas will be tried at least once.

If there's a typical colonization pattern, though, I think this wouldn't be it. The Incatena tends to believe, rationally or not, that humans are useful, and that the best use of humans is in creative or non-routine jobs. And those abound in a new colony: basically, why let the mecs have all the fun?

Which isn't to say you wake up all the colonists immediately. Few planets allow people to wander off and start a homestead. So you do need to develop things slowly; but at least some humans should be involved in the process. (Picture redoing your kitchen. You could go away for 6 months and let your contractor do everything, but most people want to be there all the time to guide the process and make little decisions.)

I like the idea of shipping fetuses. Or eggs and sperm. That would be a good way to grow the population quickly and increase genetic diversity. On the other hand, those 1000 colonists are probably the people who really really wanted to live on a new planet, and maybe paid dearly for the opportunity. I imagine they'd be unhappy if they couldn't go, only their fetuses.

How would an AI nanny/teacher work? It sounds like a great recipe for feral children to me.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:31 am How would an AI nanny/teacher work? It sounds like a great recipe for feral children to me.

The idea seems to be fairly popular among SF fans who never seriously participated in raising children, and a lot less popular among people who have.

Thanks for the response. I’ll roll with it.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:31 am How would an AI nanny/teacher work? It sounds like a great recipe for feral children to me.

My thinking when I came up with the idea was that if it had even a small chance of success, someone with either unusual views (e.g. let’s have a planet where they speak Lojban but let’s have thr computers teach them because we don’t speak Lojban well) or very strongly held views about the need to have more initial settlers than usual (genetic diversity, the fear that someone else might try stealing the planet) might try it, even if it’s the only time anyone does. It might be unethical for the reason you say but people frequently try to do unethical things.

Of course the really curious bit about the Incatena is that Mars’ surface is still barely inhabitable after 3,000-odd years, but New Bharat, settled a mere century ago, has a breathable if slightly corrosive atmosphere that humans can live on. And that’s not even starting on Okura or Armonia...shouldn’t it be dangerous to inveigle oneself into an alien ecosystem, both for the aforementioned ecosystem and the human explorers?

Pedant wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:44 am Of course the really curious bit about the Incatena is that Mars’ surface is still barely inhabitable after 3,000-odd years, but New Bharat, settled a mere century ago, has a breathable if slightly corrosive atmosphere that humans can live on.

Perhaps New Bharat was more human-friendly in the first place?

And I'm not sure about your "settled a mere century ago" timeline - how are you counting?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:57 am Perhaps New Bharat was more human-friendly in the first place?

And I'm not sure about your "settled a mere century ago" timeline - how are you counting?

Ah, I stand corrected. According to the “Planets of the Incatena” page, New Bharat was colonized in the 48C, which would put it 200 years before the start of the novel, not 100. Still, that’s really not a lot of time...

The in-universe answer is that Okura and New Bharat were not terraformed; they already had ecospheres and breathable air.

Whether this is realistic or not, I think we just don't know. We don't know of any alien ecosphere. It's tempting to say "everything will be alien and poisonous", but all we really need is enough oxygen, and carbon for our plants. Alien biology will be extremely weird, but there's really no alien chemistry.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:27 pm The in-universe answer is that Okura and New Bharat were not terraformed; they already had ecospheres and breathable air.

Whether this is realistic or not, I think we just don't know. We don't know of any alien ecosphere. It's tempting to say "everything will be alien and poisonous", but all we really need is enough oxygen, and carbon for our plants. Alien biology will be extremely weird, but there's really no alien chemistry.

I guess...
What about gut bacteria, though? Foreign plants and animals are dangerous enough when moving from country to country, even microorganisms cause trouble if they get too far. What’s the Incatena procedure for scrubbing human remains so that this doesn’t happen? Do they get gut bacteria cultures as part of the rebuilding process? How does that work with the first settlers who have to go down and rely on their wits, trying like hell not to cause biosphere collapse with literal spilt milk?

I think it's fair to say that ecopheres colliding might be at least as dangerous on both sides as the mixing of continental ecospheres was on Earth. (Obviously, if it's too toxic we just skip that planet. It also seems conceivable that a particular planet might be safe because its biology works completely differently.)

The question is, how much of a problem is that for a science advanced several millennia beyond our own? We just don't know, so I've leaned toward narratively interesting assumptions. I will happily revise the setting once we have contact with several alien ecospheres.

In the Incatena, colonization isn't done by sending out colony ships randomly. A target system will have been extensively studied, possibly for centuries. Plus, we can modify human bodies at the genetic and cellular level. So it would be possible to pre-adapt settlers to the new ecosphere-- building in protections against its threats, and removing threats from terrestrial sources. Very likely your gut fauna will be entirely redone.

WIth such extensive human genetic engineering, are humans even a single species anymore? Are there designer babies and vast genetic differences between different classes?

People still want to have babies together, so they'd try to ensure genetic compatibility. People want particular features, not (say) a 24th chromosome pair.

Though (say) Novorossiyans don't have much reason to stay genetically compatible with Okurinese. If they do happen to meet and marry, one or both can be genofixed to be compatible.

It does raise the question, what happens when a wolf furry and a fox furry have children? Do the parents want whatever mixture happens, or a choice of one or the other? Or a regular-headed baby?

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:27 am People still want to have babies together, so they'd try to ensure genetic compatibility. People want particular features, not (say) a 24th chromosome pair.

Though (say) Novorossiyans don't have much reason to stay genetically compatible with Okurinese. If they do happen to meet and marry, one or both can be genofixed to be compatible.

It does raise the question, what happens when a wolf furry and a fox furry have children? Do the parents want whatever mixture happens, or a choice of one or the other? Or a regular-headed baby?

On the subject of the last one: are there any occasions to redesign one’s entire body to look like a different species? I don’t mean a furry per se--more like living as an elephant. Or better yet, has anyone tried enhancing animal brains, maybe with storage space in the Vee, so they become fully-functioning members of Incatena society? Would that even work in a human-dominant system?

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:27 am People still want to have babies together, so they'd try to ensure genetic compatibility. People want particular features, not (say) a 24th chromosome pair.

That's an interesting point, though. People want to have babies, and want to keep their options open... but people's parents very often want to do the opposite, and make sure their children only breed with people their parents approve of. Genetic modification seems like it could be a really easy way for parents to try to predetermine their children's lives...


[I'd re-iterate the different biology point, though. Unlike you, I think most alien biology will look very much like that on earth - functionally speaking - particularly if we limit ourselves to vaguely human-inhabitable planets. Because convergent evolution will address similar problems in similar ways, as it has done on eartha cross times and places and lineages. But of course, that doesn't mean that the details, the biochemistry and the structure of organs, will be the same. It's worth bearing in mind that when you're dealing with, as it were, "attacks" (intentional or accidental) on biological systems, even very small changes in the system can totally negate that attack. Hence substances being toxic to humans but not other animals, or vice versa. Or, famously, the spider venom that is absolutely fatal only to earthworms and great apes, and nothing else. If we discover an alien biosphere, that biology and ours will, as it were, slide past one another with minimal engagement. We'd maybe be able to inefficiently digest a few of their simpler carbohydrate-rich foods, and maybe something here or there might randomly turn out poisonous, but we'd largely not interact.
Of course, even in that case, our biology could outcompete theirs, or vice versa. On the other hand, this is probably less likely than we might naively think - because "our" biospheres - soil, guts, etc, are so filled with "our" biology, all evolved to deal interdependently with other parts of "our" biology, alien organisms would probably struggle to thrive in our biospheres, and ours in theirs. Although blind bad luck is always possible.]

Pedant wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:42 amOn the subject of the last one: are there any occasions to redesign one’s entire body to look like a different species? I don’t mean a furry per se--more like living as an elephant. Or better yet, has anyone tried enhancing animal brains, maybe with storage space in the Vee, so they become fully-functioning members of Incatena society? Would that even work in a human-dominant system?

First, I think this would be far harder than it sounds. E.g. if you want to live as a rabbit, do you want to eat rabbit food, digest food as a rabbit does, including the bits about eating poop for more complete nutrient extraction? It's not just our brains that make us human.

As for making animals sentient... wow, that's a can of worms. (Potentially a can of sentient worms.) I'm inclined to say it's against the ethics or aesthetics of the Incatena, which generally believes that an ecosphere should develop with minimal human interference. Plus, I suspect that the sentimental longing for (say) a sentient pet would collide very quickly with unwanted side-effects. Such as your sentient pet demanding a share of your estate, or moving off to college on Sihor.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:14 amGenetic modification seems like it could be a really easy way for parents to try to predetermine their children's lives...

They can try, but the kids can go to a doctor and have everything undone. Genes don't determine anything when they can be freely changed!

I'd re-iterate the different biology point, though. Unlike you, I think most alien biology will look very much like that on earth - functionally speaking - particularly if we limit ourselves to vaguely human-inhabitable planets. Because convergent evolution will address similar problems in similar ways, as it has done on eartha cross times and places and lineages.

Well, I'd point out that we should expect at least as much variation as between Earth continents. E.g. a certain large-herbivore niche can be filled by deer, or by kangaroo. The arboreal fruit-dispersing niche may be filled by monkeys or by fruit bats. Wings will look similar but may develop out of fingers (pterodactyls), or hands (bats), or arms (birds) or something else (insects).

(And sure, maybe an alien ecosphere just kind of slides past ours with no huge problems. We just don't know, which is why I'm comfy with perpetuating the sf trope of ecospheres we can walk around in without pressure suits.)