Zompist Bboard Again

Is anyone here acquainted with Tamil (Vijay)? It looks to me like they use -gal for pluralizing pronouns and -kaḷ for nouns, am I right? Or is the pronoun suffix -ngal? How is it pronounced? I also wonder if the suffix -kaḷ takes different forms depending on the phonetic environment. For example, if a noun ends with k, does this suffix simply cause gemination?

They're all just allomorphs of the same suffix. Malayalam is similar (almost the same).

Oh, I seem to have been fooled by different sources using different transcriptions. >_< OK, thanks!

The plural morpheme is just /kaḷ/, but spoken Tamil has quite a few allophonic rules. E.g. stops are voiced after a nasal, so /naṅkaḷ/ 'we (excl)' is pronounced [naŋgā]. If I'm not mistaken, /cirumikaḷ/ 'girls' is [sirumiɣā] while /pūkkaḷ/ 'flowers' is [pūkkā].

(Short vowels are laxed but I haven't tried to indicate that.)

Huh, didn't know /cirumikaḷ/ (literally something like 'small female ones'?)...I think 1st person exclusive plural is /nānkaḷ/, so it might be realized as [n̪āŋgā]. I'd guess the pronunciation rules varied depending on dialect.

In Malayalam, as far as I'm aware, it's pretty easy (unless maybe you also count whatever they speak in Lakshadweep as Malayalam despite how divergent it is). It's /kaḷ/ in Malayalam, too, and pronounced -[kaḷ] after [ u ] and [uː]. However, if the singular form ends in [m], then the plural form is formed by replacing the [m] with [ŋaḷ] (in at least one variety of Tamil, this would be [ŋgaḷ]; in others, it may be [ŋgā]). Otherwise it's [gaḷ]. '(My) children' is an exception: /makkaḷ/ [makaḷ] (compare /makan/ [magɛn] 'son' and /makaḷ/ [magaḷ] 'daughter').

Oops, yeah, the first vowel is long. But it really is a ṅ: நாங்கள். So: /nāṅkaḷ/ [nāŋgā].

It's an ṅ graphemically, yes, but it's no phoneme in Tamil since it only ever occurs before [g]. It is a phoneme in Malayalam, though.

Well, you can argue that with Sanford Steever. He says that it's common to take the written form as a representation of the phonology, since there isn't good agreement on the phonology. But maybe this has changed since he wrote.

(Another complication he mentions is the difference between High and Low Tamil (centamiḷ / koṭuntamiḷ), but I don't know if it affects any of the words I cited.)

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:03 pmWell, you can argue that with Sanford Steever. He says that it's common to take the written form as a representation of the phonology, since there isn't good agreement on the phonology.

He said that? Well yeah, that may be true. I hate it, though. It's so confusing to people who aren't familiar with these languages (including other linguists). I have many bones to pick with...a lot of...people. But especially when it comes to Dravidian linguistics.

Another complication he mentions is the difference between High and Low Tamil (centamiḷ / koṭuntamiḷ), but I don't know if it affects any of the words I cited.

Yes, I'm pretty sure they would be [sirumiɣaḷ] and [pūkaḷ] in centamiḷ.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:22 pm The plural morpheme is just /kaḷ/, but spoken Tamil has quite a few allophonic rules. E.g. stops are voiced after a nasal, so /naṅkaḷ/ 'we (excl)' is pronounced [naŋgā]. If I'm not mistaken, /cirumikaḷ/ 'girls' is [sirumiɣā] while /pūkkaḷ/ 'flowers' is [pūkkā].

(Short vowels are laxed but I haven't tried to indicate that.)

Wait, so the Ḷ is elided in all words?

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:06 amWait, so the Ḷ is elided in all words?

Not quite that simple. Final l/ḷ is lost, but not in monosyllabic words. So /nāḷ/ = [nālu].

You mean [nāḷu]? (I think [nāḷ] may be possible in some contexts, too - at least in some compound words. Or maybe I'm just being Malayalam-centric lol).

Does that really happen on all words of more than one syllable, though? The only context where I've ever heard Tamil-speakers do that is on verbs that have plural markers that aren't in first person.

From Schiffman's "Grammar of Spoken Tamil" (a nice book btw, it's on the grammar pile).

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:06 amWait, so the Ḷ is elided in all words?

Not quite that simple. Final l/ḷ is lost, but not in monosyllabic words. So /nāḷ/ = [nālu].

Yeah, I meant in the suffix in all words. Okay, thanks!

What is LT and ST?

Literary Tamil and Spoken Tamil (not very good approximations for Centhamil and Kodunthamil, respectively, since both registers are both written and spoken). Also, I forgot about the plural pronouns; final ḷ can be dropped there, too. I don't think I can think of any words where I've ever seen/heard it being dropped other than pronouns and verbs, though.

EDIT: Also also: [ˈn̪aːɭɯ] is my closest approximation to pronouncing the word for 'day'. That's how we say it in Malayalam, at least. I'm not aware of a difference in Tamil yet (idk which dialects have just [n̪aː]).

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:30 pm Literary Tamil and Spoken Tamil (not very good approximations for Centhamil and Kodunthamil, respectively, since both registers are both written and spoken).

Allright, thanks!

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:30 pmAlso, I forgot about the plural pronouns; final ḷ can be dropped there, too. I don't think I can think of any words where I've ever seen/heard it being dropped other than pronouns and verbs, though.

Okay, I really need to read this thread better. @_@ So, word-final ḷ is dropped in polysyllabic words, but not in ST (?) nouns? Can you tell me which register is used by Google Translate?

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:50 amSo, word-final ḷ is dropped in polysyllabic words, but not in ST (?) nouns?

Word-final ḷ as far as I can tell is not dropped at all except apparently in the word for 'day' in some varieties of Tamil and also in plural pronouns and the verb forms corresponding to said pronouns (in fact, here's a concrete example from now-probably-a-bit-outdated Tamil pop culture: hello, /niːnkaɭ/ shut up /paɳɳunkaɭ/ 'hello, would you please shut up!' > Kodunthamil/ST/whatever [hɛlˈloː ˈn̪iːŋgə ʃəʈəp pəɳɳʊŋˈgə]).

Can you tell me which register is used by Google Translate?

Google Translate probably sucks balls with Tamil. But LT.

Aha. Allright, thanks!