Zompist Bboard Again

Polish is notable for contrasting affricates and the otherwise equivalent stop+sibilant clusters. For instance, the words ⟨trzy⟩ "three" and ⟨czy⟩ (a question particle) are a minimal pair for /tʂ/ and /t͡ʂ/, respectively.

However, this pair of affricate and cluster is typically the one given, though the distinction is said to cover other sibilants as well.

I am a native/heritage speaker, and I can perceive a distinction in the dentals as well, namely /t͡s/ versus /ts/. However, I can't seem to think of a minimal pair for this set?

Can anyone with knowledge of Polish think of minimal pairs for the dentals? The alveolo-palatals for that matter? Do these minimal pairs just not exist? If so, does this have implications for analyses of Polish phonology, given that the distinction seems to be perceptible to native speakers anyway?

I believe that in the examples I've seen, /ts/ is always across a morpheme boundary. Does that sound possible?

I guess you'd need a word with a history similar to "tsar" to get a /ts/ sequence within a morpheme. But that word never had /t/ in proto-Slavic so it's out. (It was č.) It may be that no such words exist....if they did I'd think the spelling would've survived and thus the words would be well known.

What would be an example of a Polish word with /ts/?

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:43 am What would be an example of a Polish word with /ts/?

Co.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:56 am

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:43 am What would be an example of a Polish word with /ts/?

Co.

That's /t͡s/. I'm looking for one with /ts/.

Polish words can end in /t/, like bat 'whip'. I assume that when such a word comes before a word starting with /s/, the sequence /ts/ isn't pronounced exactly the same as the affricate /t͡s/. The /ts/ in that context would presumably be heterosyllabic /t.s/. I don't know whether a tautosyllabic non-affricate consonant cluster /ts/ exists in any actually used Polish word.

There seem to be very few words spelled with "ts" in Polish. In fact, the two main examples I can find look based on English spellings where "ts" represents an affricate in the original language: tsunami (from Japanese) and Botswana (from Tswana). I would guess that these are pronounced with affricates in Polish, although maybe they have spelling pronunciations with /t/ + /s/.

Within a word, the only examples I found actually involve devoiced /d/, not underlying /t/. With the prefix przed-, there are przedstawienie, przedsionek, and przedszkole. I assume that there is a syllable break after przed- in these words.

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:27 pm

Raholeun wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:56 am Co.

That's /t͡s/. I'm looking for one with /ts/.

Guess you're right. Did several years of Polish in an academical setting and never noticed the difference...

Edit: fixed quotes.

Estav wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:15 pm Polish words can end in /t/, like bat 'whip'. I assume that when such a word comes before a word starting with /s/, the sequence /ts/ isn't pronounced exactly the same as the affricate /t͡s/. The /ts/ in that context would presumably be heterosyllabic /t.s/. I don't know whether a tautosyllabic non-affricate consonant cluster /ts/ exists in any actually used Polish word.

There seem to be very few words spelled with "ts" in Polish. In fact, the two main examples I can find look based on English spellings where "ts" represents an affricate in the original language: tsunami (from Japanese) and Botswana (from Tswana). I would guess that these are pronounced with affricates in Polish, although maybe they have spelling pronunciations with /t/ + /s/.

Within a word, the only examples I found actually involve devoiced syllable-final /d/, not underlying /t/. With the prefix przed-, there are przedstawienie, przedsionek, and przedszkole.

I'm pretty sure I do pronounce tsunami with initial /ts/ rather than /t͡s/? Which means that while not a minimal pair, you get pairs like tsunami and cudo "miracle".

Opalescent Yams wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:20 pmI'm pretty sure I do pronounce tsunami with initial /ts/ rather than /t͡s/?

But wouldn't that be more of a spelling pronnciation?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:04 am

Opalescent Yams wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:20 pmI'm pretty sure I do pronounce tsunami with initial /ts/ rather than /t͡s/?

But wouldn't that be more of a spelling pronnciation?

Nu?

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:13 amNu?

Whut?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:52 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:13 amNu?

Whut?

Not 100% sure if this is what he meant but so what if it is?

jal wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:52 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:13 amNu?

Whut?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_w ... _English#N

Translation: Why would that make a difference? It would still represent an instance of the requested contrast regardless of its ultimate origin.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:13 amregardless of its ultimate origin.

I would say that in general, recent borrowings do not really count towards a language's phonetic inventory, and neither, I feel, are other phonetic phonomena linked to borrowings. So if "tsunami" is the only instance of a word where "ts" are pronounced seperate, and all others have "c" and are pronounced as an affricate, I wouldn't count that as the "requested contrast". But that's just me perhaps.


JAL