Zompist Bboard Again

I know it's been ages since I've posted here, but the CBB doesn't have table markup for some reason and ConWorkShop requires an account to view language-related things. The phonology and orthography below is the result of many iterations of Aéhaufa [ɔ̥ᵝ.ə̥˦:.ɴ̥͡m̪̊ɔ̥ᵝ.ɯ̥.m̪̊ɔ̥ᵝ] on the CBB. While the language once had stress, speakers compensated for its loss with a vowel shift of formerly stressed vowels. [ŋ̊, ɰ̃̊] are in complementary distribution based upon <g> being word-initial or word-medial.

Consonants

	Bilabial	Labiodental	Alveolar	Palatal	Velars	Co-articulations
Plosives	p <p>		t <t>		k <k>	p͡ʔ <b> t͡p <c>
Fricatives			s <s>	ç <sj> ç̃ <nj> ʎ̝̊ <lj>	ʟ̝̊ <l>
Affricates				c͡ç <tj>
Nasals	m̥ <m>	m̪̊ <f>	n̥ <n>		ŋ̊ <g>	ɴ̥͡m̪̊ <h>
Flaps				c̆ <r>
Approximants				j̊ <j>	ɰ̃̊ <g>

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High		ɨ̥ <i> ɨ̥˨˩˦ <id> ɨ̥˨ <iw> ɨ̥˥˩ <iq> ɨ̥˩˥ <ijn> ɨ̥˦ <iv> ɨ̥˧˦˩ <iz> ɨ̥˦ː <í>	ɯ̥ <u> ɯ̥˨˩˦ <ud> ɯ̥˨ <uw> ɯ̥˥˩ <uq> ɯ̥˩˥ <ujn> ɯ̥˦ <uv> ɯ̥˧˦˩ <uz> ɯ̥˦ː <ú>
High mid	e̥ <ey> e̥˨˩˦ <eyd> e̥˨ <eyw> e̥˥˩ <eyq> e̥˩˥ <eyjn> e̥˦ <eyv> e̥˧˦˩ <eyz> e̥˦ː <éy>		o̥ᵝ <o> o̥ᵝ˨˩˦ <od> o̥ᵝ˨ <ow> o̥ᵝ˥˩ <oq> o̥ᵝ˩˥ <ojn> o̥ᵝ˦ <ov> o̥ᵝ˧˦˩ <oz> o̥ᵝ˦ː <ó>
Mid		ə̥ <e> ə̥˨˩˦ <ed> ə̥˨ <ew> ə̥˥˩ <eq> ə̥˩˥ <ejn> ə̥˦ <ev> ə̥˧˦˩ <ez> ə̥˦ː <é>
Low mid			ɔ̥ᵝ <a> ɔ̥ᵝ˨˩˦ <ad> ɔ̥ᵝ˨ <aw> ɔ̥ᵝ˥˩ <aq> ɔ̥ᵝ˩˥ <ajn> ɔ̥ᵝ˦ <av> ɔ̥ᵝ˧˦˩ <az> ɔ̥ᵝ˦ː <á>

You’ll have to forgive my saying so, but...yipe, that’s a terrifying phonology.

Pedant wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:58 pm You’ll have to forgive my saying so, but...yipe, that’s a terrifying phonology.

This is rather typical of yangfiretiger121.

Forgive me, but if [ᵝ] is supposed to represent lip-flattening as it does for Japanese then surely that's incompatible with lip-rounding? So why is it that you've chosen to have it present only on otherwise rounded vowels?

Yawnnn......... Sound inventory is so tinny.... compared to what i was expecting.

Frislander wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:17 pm Forgive me, but if [ᵝ] is supposed to represent lip-flattening as it does for Japanese then surely that's incompatible with lip-rounding? So why is it that you've chosen to have it present only on otherwise rounded vowels?

I presume yangfiretiger121 means /ɯᵝ/ by "/uᵝ/".

FlamyobatRudki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:27 pm Yawnnn......... Sound inventory is so tiny.... compared to what I was expecting.

I never said particularly large, just terrifying...

Pedant wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:35 pm

FlamyobatRudki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:27 pm Yawnnn......... Sound inventory is so tiny.... compared to what I was expecting.

I never said particularly large, just terrifying...

i don't know how to answer this

However yangfiretiger121 designs their conlangs is invariably how not to design a conlang.

Generally speaking, the lang this evolved from was necessarily completely voiceless because I thought Starfinder's Nagaji, who spoke it from the start, were anthropomorphic snakes. Thus, the ancestor's original form only had voiceless coronal consonants and voiceless unrounded vowels due to real serpentine anatomy. I kept it voiceless because I like the idea of a voiceless language. It turns out Nagaji were created from us by naga, though.

Travis, you've, undoubtedly, seen some of my stuff about this particular lang on the CBB. While you may not have helped with it, I'm fairly sure you've offered input on some of my questions over there. You can either help me learn how to conlang as I'm a beginner or see yourself out of my conlanging activities.

Frislander, [ᵝ] represents labial compression, as you mentioned. However, [o̥ᵝ] is a variant of [o͍̊] using the correct diacritic. As for [ɔ̥ᵝ], it's unattested but possible, as I've produced it myself.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:57 pm However yangfiretiger121 designs their conlangs is invariably how not to design a conlang.

I disagree. The phonology is strange and surreal. But as I learned with alice's conlang, an unrealistic language is a lot of fun, although it's hard to get right. Seriously, a naturalistic conlang only requires good linguistic knowledge. An unnatural language has to make sure that it's both bizzare, but not lazily done.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:25 pmc̆ <r>

I wonder how is your anatomy of your speaker's mouth /notsarcastic? If possible, please give us spectogram on how the native speaker's saying each phoneme.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:01 pm[o͍̊]

What does it mean?

Also, you need to flesh out your conlang. Being unnaturalistic is not an excuse for lack of detail. Another thing is that you should omit voiceless mark as it's redudant. You should put it in a note. Similarly on how lip rounding was done. Tone marking should be discussed separately from vowel marking.

Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:23 am

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:25 pmc̆ <r>

I wonder how is your anatomy of your speaker's mouth /notsarcastic? If possible, please give us spectogram on how the native speaker's saying each phoneme.

The palatal flap you pulled out came to be <r>through dissimulation. Originally, [ɾ̥~ɺ̥] was <r> and [c̆~ʎ̮̊] was <rj>. Then, [ɾ̥~ɺ̥ → ɬ → ʟ̝̊], eventually, shifting to <l> and [ʎ̮̊ → ʎ̝̊], eventually, shifting to <lj>. Thus, [c̆] was left alone at <rj> and simplified to <r>.

As for the spectrogram/graph, I don't have the necessary equipment.

Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:23 am

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:01 pm[o͍̊]

What does it mean?

Also, you need to flesh out your conlang. Being unnaturalistic is not an excuse for lack of detail. Another thing is that you should omit voiceless mark as it's redundant. You should put it in a note. Similarly on how lip rounding was done. Tone marking should be discussed separately from vowel marking.

[o͍]'s only attested transcription is [ɤᵝ]. Thus, my guess is the difference between [o, o̥] is more similar to the difference between [m̥, m] than that between [k, g]. But, I defer to someone more experienced than myself for a final answer.

While my first post here lacks phonotactics, morphology, etc., I know them but was more interested in getting the lang's inventory and orthography somewhere easy for the non-conlangers who need it to access than being complete about things. I grouped the tone markings with the vowels because the diacritics would be above the vowels. Finally, why are notes on voicelessness and lip rounding better than correct phonemes?

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:04 am

Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:23 am

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:25 pmc̆ <r>

I wonder how is your anatomy of your speaker's mouth /notsarcastic? If possible, please give us spectogram on how the native speaker's saying each phoneme.

The palatal flap you pulled out came to be <r>through dissimulation. Originally, [ɾ̥~ɺ̥] was <r> and [c̆~ʎ̮̊] was <rj>. Then, [ɾ̥~ɺ̥ → ɬ → ʟ̝̊], eventually, shifting to <l> and [ʎ̮̊ → ʎ̝̊], eventually, shifting to <lj>. Thus, [c̆] was left alone at <rj> and simplified to <r>.

As for the spectrogram/graph, I don't have the necessary equipment.

I'm pretty sure that palatal flap is very difficult if not impossible to pronounce for human.

As of spectogram, you can make it up with photoshop. After all, your conlang is not spoken by human.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:04 am While my first post here lacks phonotactics, morphology, etc., I know them but was more interested in getting the lang's inventory and orthography somewhere easy for the non-conlangers who need it to access than being complete about things.

Who is your target audience? Non-conlangers would find this phonology overwhelming and prefer the SAE phonology. On the other hand, a linguistic-aware readers demand completeness.
Although to be honest, I also only post phonology here. I do make grammar and morphology, but it's still on the development hell. It's very easy to make phonology, but then I stumbled on morphology and syntax. Even if the language is supposed to be language isolate and thus I don't have to make a protolanguage.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:04 am I grouped the tone markings with the vowels because the diacritics would be above the vowels.

But you used tone letters, so it should not be a problem. I also separate the tone with the vowel, even though in my conlang tone and vowel is more intertwined (like navajo) and fewer (only two unless you count a downstep).

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:04 am Finally, why are notes on voicelessness and lip rounding better than correct phonemes?

No, it's not phonemes, it's phones. There is no voiced sound, so voicing is not a phoneme and you don't have to write it for phonemic analysis. Similarly for lip rounding. You can discuss the exact realization of phonemes in phonological tone. Also, it would be distracting to put voiceless diacritic to every vowel.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:01 pm Generally speaking, the lang this evolved from was necessarily completely voiceless because I thought Starfinder's Nagaji, who spoke it from the start, were anthropomorphic snakes. Thus, the ancestor's original form only had voiceless coronal consonants and voiceless unrounded vowels due to real serpentine anatomy. I kept it voiceless because I like the idea of a voiceless language. It turns out Nagaji were created from us by naga, though.

Do your nagajis have vocal cords? If it's true, I generally expect your nagajis to have voiced vowel. Also are their teeth sharp? If so, I expect linguolabials. Due to the anatomy of the tongue, I expect more coarticulation. For example the linguolabial-alveolar coarticulation would be impossible for human, but not for nagaji. On the other hand, I expect that trill and flaps were impossible. If the tongues are narrow, stops would be impossible and everything would be a lateral. That's why I say you have to explain the mouth anatomy first to us before giving the phoneme.

The Great Aéhoi Empire is science-fantasy-based (think Star Trek/Star Wars). Thus, it's inhabited by all manner of creatures from us to taurs (human upper body quadrupedal animal (horse, etc.) lower body) to devils. Honestly, I don't expect other to try an learn it, even though doing so would help those in the Starfinder campaign I co-GM. Therefor, it's more of a pet art lang of mine for setting immersion. Granted, I may create general-use roleplay characters from it. However, I'm not sure I'll use the setting, itself, other than for sci-fan tabletop campaigns. The backstory is the naga, who have a human upper body and a snake's tail but no legs, created the nagaji from completely human stock, meaning nagaji look very similar to us. The setting's not in the Milky Way, let alone on Earth, so I'd find an Earth-like phonology immersion-breaking. If the nagaji were anthropomorphic snakes, and not human, all labial articulations ([m], etc.; no lips), palatal-related articulations ([c], etc.]; tongue sheath), velar articulations ([k], etc.; tongue sheath), voiced sounds ([d], etc.; no vocal folds), and rounded vowels ([y], etc.; no lips) would be impossible for them. The phonology below is the first one I remember posting for Serpenttongue. While I can't remember if it was before or after switching from anthro snakes to nagaji, I'm tempted to say it was after the change for some reason.

/m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ ŋ̊/ <μ ν νϳ χ> (<m n ny x>)
/p t k/ <π τ κ> (<p t k>)
/s ɕ ȶɕ/ <ϲ ϲϳ τϳ> (<c sh ch>)
/j̊ r̥/ <ι~j ρ> (<i~j r>)
/ʘ ʘ̃ ʇ ʇ̃ ʖʰ ʞ/ <ϝ θ λ χ> (<(w mw) (th nth) l x>)
/ɒ ə ɨ/ <α ε ι> (<a e i>)
/ɒː əː ɨː/ <ά έ ί> (<á é í>)

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:34 pm so I'd find an Earth-like phonology immersion-breaking.

I agree

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:34 pm all labial articulations ([m], etc.; no lips)

But they have maxillary

On the other hand nonlabial stop would be impossible. They can't occlude their mouth with their hand.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:34 pm voiced sounds ([d], etc.; no vocal folds)

On the other hand, if you already modified the snake tongue to be wide enough, you may also modify their vocal chords so they can have vocal folds. However, it's your choice and that's why you should post the anatomy of nagaji's mouth. (With a diagram).

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:34 pm palatal-related articulations ([c], etc.]; tongue sheath), velar articulations ([k], etc.; tongue sheath),

I'm pretty much sure that palatal and velar is the thing that snakes will love to pronounce owing to its long tongue. Also it may also have laminal velar consonant, that human probably cannot pronounce.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:34 pm rounded vowels ([y], etc.; no lips) would be impossible for them.

Here is my idea for your language:

1. maxillar consonant, and by consequence linguomaxillar
2. bifidal consonant, where the consonant is pronounced by forked part of tongue

A nagaji's mouth is a human's mouth. Thus, they can pronounce everything we can. I was talking about an anthro snake's mouth (image below). I've researched this subject.



Notice where the tongue sheath terminates. That is very likely to preclude an anthro snake from articulating palatals without a concave tongue (those with are dubious), velars, and uvulars. I classify epiglottals as dubious for them, whereas glottals are possible. Therefore, you seem o be missing the point. If I create a language that anthro snakes can speak, I'll take your suggested consonants in mind.

One of the Empire's languages has four plosive series; tenuis ([p], etc.), aspirated ([pʰ], etc.), voiced ([b], etc.), and labiovelarized breathy ([bʷʱ~bʱʷ], etc.). Aside from merger and fricativization ([ɸ~f], etc.), what are viable endpoints for the aspirated and the labiovelarized breathy series?

Then I see plothole. If your nagaji's mouth were human too, there's no need for alien morphology.

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:56 pm One of the Empire's languages has four plosive series; tenuis ([p], etc.), aspirated ([pʰ], etc.), voiced ([b], etc.), and labiovelarized breathy ([bʷʱ~bʱʷ], etc.). Aside from merger and fricativization ([ɸ~f], etc.), what are viable endpoints for the aspirated and the labiovelarized breathy series?

Affricativization (i.e. kʰ -> kx), preaspiration, turning it into cluster involving velar fricative, and making the vowel breathy. Oh and labiovelarized consonant can color the vowel.

Thanks, Akangka. I'll think about the final forms.

Before I post Aéhoi Creole's redone inventory, I have a question about phone classification. As commonly-used words can behave unexpectedly (the as [ðə], not [θə]), are <cb> unconditionally shifting [p͡ʔ → ʔ] and <h> shifting [ɴ̥͡ɱ̊ → ɴ̥] before <u, ú> in its particles phonemic or allophonic shifts?

yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:33 am Thanks, Akangka. I'll think about the final forms.

Before I post Aéhoi Creole's redone inventory, I have a question about phone classification. As commonly-used words can behave unexpectedly (the as [ðə], not [θə]), are <c> unconditionally shifting [p͡ʔ → ʔ] and <h> shifting [ɴ̥͡ɱ̊ → ɴ̥] before <u, ú> in its particles phonemic or allophonic shifts?

"the" is not unexpected. It just that /ð/ and /θ/ is represented with the same graph <th>. Also it's an allophonic shifts, until something is done to the rest so that the appearance of /ʔ/ and /ɴ/ is no longer predictable. (For example, if some vowel becomes /u/, but the shift stops to operate)