Zompist Bboard Again

Are there any "poires minimales" for /nj/ and /ɲ/, as in manière and gagnèrent?

For a second there I thought you were talking about tiny fruit

That page has https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:P ... n%C3%A7ais has gnons vs. nions

To be honest the nuance eludes me. I have [ɲ] or possibly [nj], but in any case the same phoneme in both manière and gagnèrent and gnons [ɲõ] / nions [nijõ].

Hopefully you'll have better luck with Canadian speakers

un ion and un gnon; the verbs manier and (se) magner (though these two are an etymological doublet). A quasi-minimal pear: union and oignon /ɔɲɔ̃/.

Just like Ars Lande, I tend to merge them anyway.

My linguistics professor made me realise that most people these days don't make the distinction any more, but the notation stays separate out of inertia. Similar things happen with phonetic notation of English.

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:00 amHopefully you'll have better luck with Canadian speakers

Not with LA French speakers, though. The most common realisation for both /ɲ/ and /nj/ is [j̃]. Sometimes the nasalisation is lost, as in manière, which in Vermilion is often pronounced [majæ(r)], particularly when used adverbially.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:36 am

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:00 amHopefully you'll have better luck with Canadian speakers

Not with LA French speakers, though. The most common realisation for both /ɲ/ and /nj/ is [j̃]. Sometimes the nasalisation is lost, as in manière, which in Vermilion is often pronounced [majæ(r)], particularly when used adverbially.

There are even more similarities between Réunion Creole and Louisiana French! [j̃] is a common realisation here in Réunion as well, especially intervocalically. And there are also occasional examples of nj>j, like in ma(n)yèr.

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:00 am For a second there I thought you were talking about tiny fruit

That page has https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:P ... n%C3%A7ais has gnons vs. nions

To be honest the nuance eludes me. I have [ɲ] or possibly [nj], but in any case the same phoneme in both manière and gagnèrent and gnons [ɲõ] / nions [nijõ].

Hopefully you'll have better luck with Canadian speakers

Can confirm, my /ɲ/ is definitely a separate sound. I think the main reason there are so few minimal pairs is that ultimately /ɲ/ is just not a very common sound in French, and it is probably most frequent at the end of words, where it cannot possibly contrast with /nj/. Similar lacks of contrast (I think /œ̃/ is actually fairly uncommon outside the indefinite article...) drive the brin-brun and jeune-jeûne mergers.

Circeus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:49 amSimilar lacks of contrast (I think /œ̃/ is actually fairly uncommon outside the indefinite article...) drive the brin-brun and jeune-jeûne mergers.

Oddly, Cajun French seems to merge /œ̃/ and /æ̃/ only in the indefinite article.

Some exact minimal pairs are mignon (adjective) and minions (verb), chignon (noun) and chinions (verb).

[j̃] is also the usual Brazilian and African realization of European Portuguese /ɲ/. Are there other examples of this, perhaps in Spanish, Italian or some variety of Slavic?

Polish /ɲ/ can be [j̃] before a fricative, as in Gdańsk. I don't know whether this shows up as an allophone in other contexts.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:22 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:36 am

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:00 amHopefully you'll have better luck with Canadian speakers :)

Not with LA French speakers, though. The most common realisation for both /ɲ/ and /nj/ is [j̃]. Sometimes the nasalisation is lost, as in manière, which in Vermilion is often pronounced [majæ(r)], particularly when used adverbially.

There are even more similarities between Réunion Creole and Louisiana French! [j̃] is a common realisation here in Réunion as well, especially intervocalically. And there are also occasional examples of nj>j, like in ma(n)yèr.

[j̃] is ALSO the realization of historical /ɲ/ (in polysyllables) in at least older Métis French and the French-derived vocabulary in Michif. (In monosyllables it's [n] or [ŋ].) Historical /nj/ is also [j̃]. So: manière --> [maj̃eɾ], ligne --> [lɪŋ], montagne --> [mõtãj̃].