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Buru-Matala

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:40 am
by foxcatdog
My first attempted conlanging project what is presented here constitutes a rough draft.
In universe Buru-Matala is a minor but old, diverse and geographically widespread language family spoken on the periphery of Africa's other major language families. (Africa here doesn't refer to the real world place but rather a fictional continent which i have deemed to be like Africa because it has a big desert and semi desert region seperating the far north from other parts of the continent). Buru-Matala broke up long ago in prehistory so i imagine it would be rather difficult to reconstruct if i wasn't constructing it right now.

Phonology
Buru-Matala has a rather basic phonology consisting of 9 consonants and 9 vowels (the symmetry is nice but i didn't notice it at first). It had a CV syllable structure in the past but 2 processes changed this before the language broke up into daughters.
Consonants
Nasals: *m, *n
Stops: *p, *t, *k, *ʔ
Fricatives: *b, *s
Liquids: *l
The only phoneme of note here is *b which has a variety of reflexes in the daughter branches including *m, *p, *f, *v, *z, *w and *ʙ. *b is also quite rare as a phoneme occuring in only a few usually ominous roots *bubu "cry" and *bʊnla "sickness/bad omen" and no affixes. *ʔ follows a similar distribution.
Note that roots must begin with consonants however the same does not apply to words which may begin with a vowel. Word internal 2 vowel sequences may exist to the most common of which being *ua and *ia
In terms of allophony it can be speculated that the alveolars were palatised before high-front vowels. However by far the most significant case of allophony caused intervocalic sequences of *nl to become *r in most daughters.

Vowels
Buru-Matala has 3 sets of 3 vowels each grouped as lax, tense (short) and long. Alternative analysis would hold them to be short, long and overlong. They are transcribed as.
High-Front: *ɪ, *i, *ī
High-Back: *ʊ, *u, *ū
Low: *ɐ, *a, *ā

Phonetic Processes
A few proccesses underly the morphology of Buru-Matala.
Coda *n
The most important change in Buru-Matala is the deletion of the *ɐ in sequences of *nɐ. This occurs in all positions except for at the beginning of words (compare *nɐtāli "cat" vs *mintāli "the cat") and after another coda nasal (see *kannɐ "cut"). A similar process occurs with sequences of *mɐ (as well as *mʊ) which lose their vowels but only at the end of words or before another nasal or liquid (see *kamna “balance”, *lamlū “water”). These changes lead to a surface level (C)V(N) language which can still be analysed as (C)V at an underlying level.

Phantom *m, *n and *s
Certain instances of *m, *n and *s (marked *(m), *(n) and *(s)) disappear when you add a suffix to a root. Since these are always present in the last syllable of a root they are hypothesised to originate from previously distinct sounds which merged with *m, *n and *s when in a last syllable and were lenited otherwise.

Nasal *k
Certain instances of *k (marked *(k)) become *n when you add a suffix with another nasal or *l to a root. These suffixes must be directly next to or a syllable away from *(k) to cause this alteration. Similar to the Phantom sounds Nasal *k is thought to result from a previously distinct sound which has since merged with other sounds.

Vowel Sequences
-In sequences of lax vowels + tense vowels the lax vowel is changed to a tense vowel
-In sequences of tense or long vowels + lax vowels the lax vowel is deleted
-In sequences of any vowel + a long vowel the first vowel becomes long and the second becomes tense

Ablaut
When high-front tense or long vowels are suffixed to a word they cause the last vowel to become more high and front. Similarly when high-back tense and long vowels are suffixed to a word they cause the last vowel to become more high and back. I also plan to add other methods of vowel alteration but just haven't worked out the details.


Roots
Buru-Matala has many roots which consist of reduplicated syllables these include *mīmī “young woman/river”, *titi “cute”, *kiki “sad”, *muamua “grass”, *bubu “cry/moan” sīsī “wind”, sisi “place” and kɐnlakɐnla “mountain”. Other roots still may be seen as resulting from the reduplication of other roots.
*nāi “moon” vs *nāināi “night, moon, ocean”
*lāsā “huge” vs *lāsālāsā “giant bird/roc”

Roots are usually 2-3 syllables in length with 4 syllable roots being uncommon and 5 syllable roots such as *katɐpʊlaka “chaos” being attested.

Numbers
Only the numbers 1-3 can be reliably constructed in Buru-Matala with numbers 4 and 5 in its daughter branches being derived from a variety of sources. Most Buru-Matala languages are base 5 and the vocabulary above that undergoes frequent overhauls
*sasasa “dust/nothing/zero”
*ʔʊbi “1”
*tʊtʊ “2”
*īnlu “3”
*māni “many”
*kʊpɪsi “hand”


Grammar
Buru-Matala is an synthetic language with most of its grammar being accomplished through suffixes except for determiners (and articles) which are accomplished through prefixes.

Prefixes
Buru-Matala has several prefixes most of which have quite obvious origins.

Suffixes
Buru-Matala has 5 basic suffixes which allow speakers to derive new words from roots. Compare the following words all deriving from *mīmī "river".
mīmīka “river bed” from the place suffix *-(k)a
*mīmūlu “river fish” from the animal suffix -lu
*mīmīkɪsɐ “river grass” from the plant suffix *-(k)ɪsɐ
*mīmūsua (i actually have no idea what this would be) from the tool suffix *-sua
*mīmīkɐki “river person” (its slang for maiden) from the person suffix *-kɐki or *-tɐki
Note the place and the plant suffixes have the nasal *k which can be seen in their accusative forms *mīmīnali and *mīmīnɪsɪli (note the ablaut also occuring here).

Class/Gender
Animate vs Inanimate
Nouns divide into 2 categories which determine the type of plural marking they take *-n for animate nouns and *-sa for inanimate nouns, they also have different Cases. Several concepts such as spears have words that only differ in class only (*takana for animate and *lamam(ɐ) for inanimate respectively).
Note when adding suffixes or prefixes words still retain their class. You can see this in the above example involving the word *mīmī "river" which is an animate noun.

Cases
Not only do animate and inanimate nouns have different suffixes for the same case ending they also don't share all case endings. The most notable of these is the lack of a nominative case for inanimate nouns as they may not be the subject of a sentence.

Articles
Articles are prefixes added to a word that occupy the first part of the word.
Definite Article “the rabbit” *mi-
Definite Plural Article “the rabbits” *nimi-
Proper Article “the named rabbit” *kʊ- (rarely used)
"All" Article “all rabbits” *ū- (as in ūsīan “all spirits” and ūkasin “all men”)

Negative
*āni- is the negative determiner present before any other component of the word.
*ānikasi “no man”
*ānīusīan “no spirits at all” (Note it can be broken down into *āni- "negative article" + *ū- "all article" + *sīa "spirit" + *-n "plural" and is quite an extreme way of saying "no spirits").
*ānisɪlānsū “no cobras near me” (Note as above it can be broken down into *āni- "negative article" + *sɪlā "cobra + *-n "plural" + sū "locative".
I chose the last one because it becomes a word meaning "fear" in many daughters :twisted: .

The grammars not done this is just the basic stuff also the planned structure of a word would go something like this.
Negative + Article + Prefix + Root + Suffix + Number + Case + Word

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am
by äreo
I’m already excited to see how Buru-Matala’s daughters look, particularly what they do with the original vowel system.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:51 pm
by foxcatdog
More Information about Buru-Matala
Pronouns
Buru-Matala has 6 base pronouns. The first person pronouns are declined for gender and represent the masculine and feminine variants respectively, naturally you would only use one or the other depending on whether you are male or female. There exists a simple second person pronoun not inflected for gender. The origins of the third person pronouns are rather transparent since the gendered versions have the same ending as *pɐka "middle aged man" and *siuma "middle aged woman" and the neuter version appears to be a reduplicated second persn pronoun.
First Person: *tua *tui
Second: *sa
Third: *kūka *kūma *sasa


Noun Modifiers
Locative + Particle + Adjective + Noun
Locatives
Buru-Matala expresses the location of something via locative verbs which come before the noun they are modifying.

Particles
Buru-Matala has several particles which modify the meaning of a noun. They come before adjectives but unlike them do not take the same plural and case as the noun they modify.
*bu (denotes importance or significance)
*kulɐ (denotes the instrument used to perform an action)
*pama (denotes something helps you or exists for your benefit) (likely derived from *kapama meaning “good food”)
*sukā (denotes something harms you)
*apāma (denotes wishes)
*ilu (denotes fears)

Adjectives
Are just nouns inflected to agree with plural and case with the noun they are modifying.


Case
katā palāsikia sʊkam mɐtasi kulɐ tasapalāsili
hunter-NOM eye-VERB deer-GEN path-DAT with mind-eye-ACC
“A hunter sees a deer’s path with his intuition”
Buru-Matala has a total of 10 cases on animate nouns. The above sentence shows the first 4 cases (the useful ones). For animate nouns they are as follows.
The unmarked Nominative.
The Accusative (*-li) which is used for the direct object of a sentence
The Dative (*-tu) which is used for the indirect object of a sentence
The Genitive (*-m) which indicates nouns which modify other nouns and in this case indicates the possessor of another object
Inanimate nouns have only 6 cases. Of the above 4 cases they only have an unmarked Accusative and a Dative marked with *-si. The lack of Nominative is because they can't be the subject of a sentence.

I haven't worked out the details of the other cases yet but i have used the Detective *-lā in some examples below.



Mood
This is where i have done the most work, took me about 2 days to write this down.
Buru-Matala has 4 grammatical moods, 1 unmarked Realis mood and 3 marked Irrealis moods. Note the Realis mood only covers the Indicative mood since Sensory moods are covered by the Epistemic.
*-i (Epistemic)
*-nu (Conditional or Deontic)
*-sā (Imperative)

Epistemic
Used for moods which deal with the speakers judgement or knowledge of a situation.
Speculative modality is used when the speaker is uncertain about the state of affairs. It is indicated by adding *sala “may” to the end of the sentence.
iaʔaukā pāpikī miʔūamīmūluli sala
POS-wife cook-EPI crayfish-ACC may
“My wife may cook crayfish”

Negating the *sala with the negation particle *ka marks the event in question as being relatively unlikely to happen.
iaʔaukā pāpikī miʔūamīmūluli ka sala
POS-wife cook-EPI crayfish-ACC NEG may
“My wife may cook crayfish (through it is not likely she is)”

Sensory modality also falls under Epistemic modality likely due to the fact that it has merged with Deductive modality.
tuam pāsi iaʔaukātu pāpikī miʔūamīmūluli
1-MASC-GEN sense-EPI POS-wife-DAT cook-EPI crayfish-ACC
“I sense, my wife is cooking crayfish” literally “I sense my wife cook crayfish”

mikatālā pāsi bu mintimli
DEF-hunter-DET sense-EPI important DEF-mouse-ACC
“The hunter senses the important mouse”

ʔaunālulā ʔɐpāsima ialupūli iakanali
wife-DET sees-FUTURE POS-healthy-ACC POS-son-ACC
“A wife will see her healthy son”

Similar to Speculative modality negating the verb with *ka will imply that the subject failed to sense the object or event taking place (the negative article *āni on the other hand would imply the object of the sentence wasn’t there to begin with).
ʔaunālulā ka ʔɐpāsima ialupūli iakanali
wife-DET NEG sees-FUTURE POS-healthy-ACC POS-son-ACC
“A wife will not see her healthy son”

ʔaunālulā ʔɐpāsima ānīalupūli ānīakanali
wife-DET sees-FUTURE NEG-POS-healthy-ACC NEG-POS-son-ACC
“A wife will not see her healthy son (because he is not there)”




Deontic
Used for statements about how the world ought to be.
With no other markings Deontic implies Commissive modality which indicates commitment towards doing something.
tua tɐkunu sam ʔaunāli
1 help-DEON 2-GEN wife-ACC
“I will help your wife”

kūma nanlɪkiunu mipɐlakulun
3-FEM food-VERB-DEON DEF-snake-PLU
“She will eat the snakes”

Volitive modality is indicated by adding one of two particles before the noun *apāma for wishes and desires or *ilu for fears or events you wish not to come to pass.
pasāla tumunu apāma sukantali
tomorrow be-DEON wish rain-ACC
“Tomorrow it will rain i hope”

iatamana tumunu ka sunla ilu mīmūnuli
DEF-daughter be-DEON NEG like fear fish-ACC
“My daughter does not like fish i fear”

Directive modality can be achieved adding *tua maki literally “i desire” at the end of the sentence. Note Directive mood is not used for commands which are expressed with the Imperative mood instead.
sa nanlɪkiunu ʔakāsīsi tua maki
2 food-VERB-DEON banana-ACC 1 desire
“You must try a banana” literally “you will eat a banana i wish”

sa kumlʊnuma pasāla mikatātu tua maki
2 strike-DEON-FUTURE tomorrow DEF-hunter-DAT 1 desire
“I wish you would strike the hunter tomorrow” literally “you will strike the hunter tomorrow i wish”

Dynamic modality is indicated by adding *pala literally “can” at the end of the sentence.
mikana natilʊlu sʊkalu kūka pala
DEF-son kill-DEON deer-ACC 3-MASC can
“The son can kill deer” literally “The son kill deer he can”


Imperative
Used for commands exclusively. It has an obvious relationship to the second person pronoun and may have developed from saying something like “run, you!”
Direct commands are always of the following form. Note the recipient of the command is fronted as is the object they desire.
tua sʊtīusi pāisū suli
1-MASC drink-DAT bring-IMP 2-ACC
“you bring a drink for me”

mimīmī lubīsasi pāisū kaili
DEF-young woman fruit-PLU-DAT bring-IMP servant-ACC
“servant bring some fruits for the young woman”

mimīmī tuam lubīsasi pāisū kaili
DEF-young woman FIRST-MASC-GEN fruit-PLU-DAT bring-IMP servant-ACC
“servant bring my fruits for the young woman”

Complex Moods
Some moods are made by combining other moods. Note *pa "and" is used to seperate clauses.
Conditional moods are formed by combining an Indicative statement with a Deontic statement.
tua ka sʊkakiumu pa tumunūmu sukanta
1-MASC NEG hunt-FUTURE and be-DEON-FUTURE rain
“If it rains, i will not hunt” literally

tuam tumui pama kuali pa tuam tumunu kasan
1-GEN be-EPI benefactive servant-ACC and 1-GEN be-DEON wealth
“If i were rich, i would have a servant” literally “my exist for my benefit servant and my be wealth”

Counterfactual moods are formed by combining an Epistemic statement with a Volitive one.
tua ka sʊkakīumu pa ilu tumunūmu sukanta
1-MASC NEG hunt-FUTURE and be-DEON-FUTURE rain
“If it would rain as i fear, i would not hunt”

Potential moods are formed by contrasting a Dynamic statement with an Epistemic one.
tua sʊkakia pala pa tua lamamɐnlī
1-MASC hunt can, 1-MASC fish-EPIS
“If i can hunt, it is likely i can fish” literally “i hunt can and i fish likely”


Phonology
Buru-Matala has a (C)V(N) syllable structure. Note that final *n most likely resulted from the collapse of *nɐ while final *m resulted from the collapse of *mɐ and *mʊ sequences, this is further corroborated by the free variation seen between these sequences (*nɐtim “mouse” vs *mintim “the mouse”). Coda *m is much more restricted than *n as it only occurs at the end of words or before another sonorant (*n or *l).

Ablaut
I-mutation
Before an *i or an *ī
*ɐ and *ʊ become *ɪ
*ɪ becomes *i
U-mutation
Before and *u or an *ū
*ɐ and *ɪ become *ʊ
*ʊ and *i become *u
*ī becomes *ū

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:36 am
by foxcatdog
Case
The Instrumental case (*-ma) is used when a noun helps someone complete an action.
iaʔaukā pāpiki nanlɐsa lamlūma
POS-wife cook food-DAT water-INST
“My wife cooks food with water”

The Lative case (*-tau) indicates movement towards an object. It can also indicate reaching a potential.
tua tumu tamasɐtau
1-MASC be strong-LAT
“I will be strong”

The Ablative case (*-pɪ) indicates movement away from an object. It can also imply you are near something without the meaning of moving away.
katā tumu ʔūni bu misɪlapɪ
hunter be near important DEF-cobra-ABL
“A hunter is near the cobras”

The Causal case (*-sama) indicates the noun marks the cause or reason for something unlike other cases, it is usually used by the subject.
tulisama siatīnsin tatʊnalikasɐ
fire-CAUS destroy-PAST house-TRN
“Fire burned a house”

The Detective case (*-lā) indicates you see or sense something. Similar to the Causal case it is often used by the subject.
tatʊlā makī mā kasinli
woman-DET desire-EPI of men-ACC
“A woman senses the desires of men”

The Translative (*-kasɐ) indicates a change of state or mood.
tulisama tumu siatīnumu tatʊnalikasɐ
fire-CAUS be destroy-FUT house-TRN
“Fire will destroy the house”

miʔuaman kikikasɐ
DEF-old-man sad-TRN
“The old man became sad”

Inanimate Nouns
Inanimate nouns not only have different endings from their animate forms but they also don’t use certain cases. The most notable case they lack is the Nominative since they cannot be the subject of a sentence only an object.
An unmarked Accusative
A Dative (*-si)
An Instrumental (*-amu)
A Lative (*-lɪn)
An Ablative (*-kɐ)
A Translative (*-mɪnlu)
Inanimate nouns also have a different plural *-sa.


Noun Modifiers
Locative + Particle + Adjective + Noun
Locatives
Buru-Matala expresses the location of something via locative verbs which come before the noun they are modifying.

*atu “top” (also refers to things on top of other things)
*sɐsʊkɪ “bottom” (also refers to things under things)
*ʔisatī “left” (also refers to things to the right of things) “this bed is to the left of the room”
*pūnlu “right” (also refers to things to the right of things)

*pu “right next to”
*ʔūni “near”
*taku “medium distance away/between near and far”
*akaku “far”
*talu “between this object and this object”
*inpi “unreachable”
*satʊla “to far for me to get, you get it instead”

*sia “in”
*tasā “all around us/opposite of in”
*inti “on the ground”

Particles
Buru-Matala has several particles which modify the meaning of a noun. They come before adjectives but unlike them do not take the same plural and case as the noun they modify.

*bu (denotes importance or significance)
*kulɐ (denotes the instrument used to perform an action)
*pama (denotes something helps you or exists for your benefit) (likely derived from *kapama meaning “good food”)
*sukā (denotes something harms you)
*apāma (denotes wishes)
*ilu (denotes fears)

Adjectives
Are just nouns inflected to agree with plural and case with the noun they are modifying.


Verbs
Verbification
Nouns can be turned into verbs by adding *-kia to them.
*nanlɐ “food” > *nanlɪkia “to eat”
*mɐ(k)ā “fish” > *mɐkākia “to fish”
The suffix *-n(ɐ)li is also valid option
*lubī “fruit” > *lubīnli “to gather”

Inclusivity
Verbs can be inflected for inclusivity by adding the prefix *sū- to them.
*nanlɪkia “to eat” > *sūnanlɪkia “we eat”

Tense and Aspect
Verbs in Buru-Matala are inflected to show their position in time. Tense can be dropped when not necessary to disambiguate a sentence.
Remote Past *kala- (from *kalaka “ancestral”)
Near Past *-sin (from *sina “to finish”)
Present *-tu (from *tunu “to exist”)
Future *-uma (from *umamī “to start”)

kūma tumu kamlutu pa kūka tumu kamlisɐn
3-FEM be run-PRESENT and THIRD-MASC be run-PAST
“She is running and he was running”

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:52 am
by Pabappa
The subject noun cases are interesting but how would you mark them for past tense?

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:29 am
by foxcatdog
Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:52 am The subject noun cases are interesting but how would you mark them for past tense?
I don't understand this question, tense is marked on the verb. Also i forgot to add that the language lacks distinctions based on aspect.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:04 am
by Pabappa
Well, the causal case looks fine .... I have a similar case in Poswa, and I believe Inuktitut also does .... but the detective case looks to me like it's behaving as a verb, so that in your sample sentence, you effectively have two verbs, "detect" and "desire", but only one of them can be marked for tense. So you'd have no way of marking the difference between, say "the woman sensed..." and "the woman senses..." unless the main verb also changes. This is okay if you're doing it intentionally, but I think it's a bit unwieldy.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:56 pm
by foxcatdog
Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:04 am Well, the causal case looks fine .... I have a similar case in Poswa, and I believe Inuktitut also does .... but the detective case looks to me like it's behaving as a verb, so that in your sample sentence, you effectively have two verbs, "detect" and "desire", but only one of them can be marked for tense. So you'd have no way of marking the difference between, say "the woman sensed..." and "the woman senses..." unless the main verb also changes. This is okay if you're doing it intentionally, but I think it's a bit unwieldy.
Now that i think about it the sentence should be expressed as follows.
tatʊlā kasuntu makīkiali
woman-DET man-PLU-DAT desire-VERB-ACC
“A woman senses mens desires"

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:33 am
by foxcatdog
Heres a bunch of words in a descendant language i've dubbed Nuclear Buru-Matala with their previous proto forms just to get an idea of the sound changes i've been working on for it.
tuli → tuʎi “fire”
sīsī → ʃiʃi “wind”
lamlū → larwu “water”
lamlūka → larwuka “mud”
sukanta → sukanda “rain”
sūsū → susu “hot water”
sūsūki → susuci “boil”
mʊnlā → mora “flower”
mʊnlāka → moraka “meadow”
min → min “light”
minka → minga “sky”
ʔakāsam → ɣasam “heaven”
labɐpī → lavavi “shadow”
pūminlɐ → vumir “night”
pi → pi “sun”
nāi → nay “moon”

ʔaukā → oɣa “wife”
kana → kana “son”
tamana → tamana “daughter”
kaikai → kaykay “father”
muma → muma “mother”
luama → wama “brother”
satakɐ → satak “sister”

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:43 am
by KamareKitsune
It's very fortunate that there don't seem to be many sound changes, because this format is rather bad at expositing sound changes.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:30 pm
by foxcatdog
KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:43 am It's very fortunate that there don't seem to be many sound changes, because this format is rather bad at expositing sound changes. I did all of them except for palatal harmony.
The sound changes are as follows but they are not in order.
-Lax vowels deleted following a long vowel in a previous syllable
-*ɪ and *ʊ to *e and *o
-*u to *o word finally
-*ɐ to *a except at the end of the word where it was deleted
-Short vowels deleted between a *n and a stop, the exception being some instances of *a and *o.

-Loss of *ʔ
-Stops lenited to voiced fricatives before long vowels
-Palatisation of consonants before *i and its subsequent loss
-Development of semivowels
-*b to *v
-*nl to *r, *ml to *rw
-Nasal+Stop clusters to prenasalized voiced stops
-*nm to *rm
-*l to *n after another *l or *m or *n
-Loss of initial short vowels before obstruents
-Initial *l elided before long vowels and semivowels
-Initial *au, *ai and *u to *o
-Initial long *u to *wo, initial long *i to *ya
-*ui to *ul
-Long vowels shortened
-Palatal harmony where words may only contain either palatal or coronal consonants with most words with both shifting to contain palatals.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:49 am
by foxcatdog
Working with tenative sound changes which lead to such glories as *luvi to *loi "fruit" and *ʃwaka/ʃwakaca to *suoka/suokîa "nose/smell" respectively (î indicates a fricativised vowel). I was inspired to do this based on an idea on how i could make my conlang more like a romance language. I plan to end up with a kind off non indo-european faux latin/italian. Still haven't worked out the cases (there will definitely be those).

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 am
by Vardelm
thethief3 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:51 pmInanimate nouns have only 6 cases. Of the above 4 cases they only have an unmarked Accusative and a Dative marked with *-si. The lack of Nominative is because they can't be the subject of a sentence.
I'm curious about this. How is it that inanimates can't be a subject? How are sentences formed where other languages would make them a subject? It seems like if the accusative case is used a lot for this, the fact it is unmarked makes it sort of a technicality to call it accusative in these situations rather than just saying it's nominative since that is unmarked as well. I smell the beginnings of ergativity in the lang, which is something I always like, but I'd like to see more.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:23 pm
by Kuchigakatai
Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:04 amWell, the causal case looks fine .... I have a similar case in Poswa, and I believe Inuktitut also does .... but the detective case looks to me like it's behaving as a verb, so that in your sample sentence, you effectively have two verbs, "detect" and "desire", but only one of them can be marked for tense. So you'd have no way of marking the difference between, say "the woman sensed..." and "the woman senses..." unless the main verb also changes. This is okay if you're doing it intentionally, but I think it's a bit unwieldy.
That detective case thing would perfectly make sense if he analyzed such sentences with a zero-copula... "woman.DETEC men.GEN desires.ACC". You could think of the detective as a variant dative or metaphorical illative: "to a woman are mens' desires".
thethief3 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:56 pmNow that i think about it the sentence should be expressed as follows.
Let me repeat Pabappa's question though: how would you distinguish present from past here? Are they simply not distinguished in this case? I agree with him that your word makīkiali "desires" is more of a noun than a verb. You call it a verb, but the accusative suffix turns it into a noun. Compare with the English word "desire" itself, which can be a noun ("a desire", "the desire") or a verb ("to desire", "desire something").
Vardelm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 amI'm curious about this. How is it that inanimates can't be a subject? How are sentences formed where other languages would make them a subject? It seems like if the accusative case is used a lot for this, the fact it is unmarked makes it sort of a technicality to call it accusative in these situations rather than just saying it's nominative since that is unmarked as well. I smell the beginnings of ergativity in the lang, which is something I always like, but I'd like to see more.
It's alright, there are natural languages with similar things. For example, Blackfoot doesn't allow inanimates as subjects of transitive verbs, Halkomelem doesn't allow proper names like "Ser" or "Vardelm" as subjects of transitive verbs, Mandarin doesn't allow indefinite nouns to be the subject of the main verb.

Strategies to express such things vary. Blackfoot tends to turn such verbs into impersonals after demoting the inanimate subject to an oblique (like an instrumental), so "this problem tormented me" ends up as something like "with this problem there was tormenting (of) me" (here "there was tormenting" stands for a Blackfoot verb marked as impersonal with a particular suffix). Halkomelem handles its constraint on proper names by using passives, antipassives or clefts, so "Ser doesn't eat salmon" becomes the passive "salmon is not eaten by Ser", the antipassive "Ser doesn't eat on salmon" (where "eat" is antipassive and "salmon" is demoted to an oblique) or the cleft "it's Ser who doesn't eat salmon".

Mandarin gets around its constraint on indefinite subjects by making them the object of the (impersonal) existential verb 有 yǒu 'there is/are', so "a girl told this to me" becomes something like "there is a girl having told this to me". (A few Mandarin intransitive verbs seemingly demote the subject to a pseudo-direct-object, in post-verbal position, so "someone came" > "(it) came someone". (Formal) French has something similar with some intransitive verbs, e.g. il vient des gens, comme prévu '(some) people are coming, as expected' (il vient is impersonal and singular, with the plural des gens 'people' as the agent), but of course French doesn't have any restrictions of the Mandarin sort.)

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:45 pm
by Vardelm
Thanks Ser, good info! I thought it might be something along those lines but I'm not familiar enough with languages like that to know the specific strategies.

Re: Buru-Matala

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:36 pm
by foxcatdog
thethief3 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:56 pm
Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:04 am Well, the causal case looks fine .... I have a similar case in Poswa, and I believe Inuktitut also does .... but the detective case looks to me like it's behaving as a verb, so that in your sample sentence, you effectively have two verbs, "detect" and "desire", but only one of them can be marked for tense. So you'd have no way of marking the difference between, say "the woman sensed..." and "the woman senses..." unless the main verb also changes. This is okay if you're doing it intentionally, but I think it's a bit unwieldy.
Now that i think about it the sentence should be expressed as follows.
tatʊlā kasuntu makīkiali
woman-DET man-PLU-DAT desire-VERB-ACC
“A woman senses mens desires"
I forgot the verb.
tatʊlā pāsi kasuntu makīkiali
woman-DET senses-EPI man-PLU-DAT desire-VERB-ACC
“A woman senses mens desires"