Zompist Bboard Again

In the thread about profanity,

Vijay wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:19 pmIt also feels a lot more awkward to me to talk dirty with Indians, at least in theory.

It's the same for me – both sexy or romantic expressions can easily get awkward in any language, but for me it's much worse in my natlang Swedish than in English. Similarly, when I write song lyrics, I find it easier in English. It seems that things just generally sound more awkward in Swedish and more "cool" in English. If I would try them in German (which I learned later and am not quite fluent in), that would probably be even more awkward.

I wonder why this might be. Is because English is somehow an inherently cooler language? Seems maybe a little unlikely. Does it have to do with when you learn it – maybe things you learn in early youth seem cooler than things you learn as a baby or teenager? Maybe it's to do with level of fluency – maybe I just don't notice it as much when I say awkward or cliché things in English? Or is it because I associate English with cool media like films and music?

What are your experiences? Which languages are cooler or more awkward than others?

It's possible to have hangups in a first language that don't carry over to a second language, I think.

I've never liked English. I was actually offended once when my mother complimented my English skills. I said, "but English is a language of tricks" and something else I dont remember. So since I was a boy Ive been interested in learning other languages, and have at times studied French, German, Spanish, and Russian with the intent of mastering them. Yet, the only one of these Ive seriously pursued is Spanish, and Ive since come to hate the Russian language passionately even though I have no contact with it and thus no need to ever use it.

It can feel pretty awkward to write science-fiction (and, to a lesser extent) fantasy in French. Somehow English feels freer. You can write 'wormhole' and keep a straight face in English. Not so with 'trou de ver'. You feel freer with language, I've often found you can coin a neologism or steal one and be immediately understood. (I used 'Bugs' recently, finding a French equivalent would take some time).
Some words just don't exist. Burn is used for a precise type of spacecraft maneuver, and I still don't know what the French word is. (They must use something at Ariane, but all the good, free, online and accessible information on astronautics is in English. Plus, it's likely they use the English word anyway).

Besides, I don't know, if I'm writing a story that involves, say, the hyperdrive, even if the heroes were French (not likely) and speaking French (again, not likely), they would never use a French equivalent. They'd just say 'hyperdrive'. I mean, I use English technical vocabulary all the time myself -- of course an hypothetical French astronaut two hundred years into the future would do the same.

So, yeah, it's a bit frustrating. Especially since I don't feel up to writing fiction in English.

Conlanging is a different case. Actually, it doesn't feel awkward at all to write a conlang grammar in French (if anything, it feels serious and scholarly!) but the thing is, I learned linguistics from English language resources, so I have to look up French equivalents all the time...

akam chinjir wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:13 am It's possible to have hangups in a first language that don't carry over to a second language, I think.

I suspect this is the primary factor, less than English being inherently "cooler". When you have a language that you associate strongly with your home, your family, your childhood, etc., it seems pretty common for people to be uncomfortable talking about "edgy" or unusual topics in it. There's an emotional distance to second languages that you don't have with a first language. It's a lot easier to talk about sex when you're not speaking a language that, on some subconscious level, your brain associates with your grandmother.

Chuma wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:57 amI wonder why this might be. Is because English is somehow an inherently cooler language? Seems maybe a little unlikely. Does it have to do with when you learn it – maybe things you learn in early youth seem cooler than things you learn as a baby or teenager? Maybe it's to do with level of fluency – maybe I just don't notice it as much when I say awkward or cliché things in English? Or is it because I associate English with cool media like films and music?

There's definitely something to be said for level of fluency affecting your perceptions of a language. When I was in Germany, I often used to listen to French pop stations not because I preferred the music they played but because I couldn't understand their horrible banter. Listening to German-speaking DJs made me cringe almost as much as listening to English-speaking ones.

I frequently wish that European pop artists performed more in their native languages and less in English, and not just because I'm a language junkie. Often their English-language lyrics are so clunky and cliché-ridden that I want to cover my ears. I haven't listened to as much, say, Swedish-language pop, so I don't know what rhymes are tired and what phrases are worn out from overuse. I'm just happy when I can tell what they're saying at all.

akam chinjir wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:13 am It's possible to have hangups in a first language that don't carry over to a second language, I think.

This. For instance, I don't really mind listening to or reading language at any "educational level" in English, while I get all kinds of unpleasant emotional reactions to some kinds of "uneducated" language in German. Also, as I posted in a recent discussion over in the random thread, I find it easier to read 19th-century English writings than 19th-century German writings.

As far as the sheer "coolness" of languages is concerned, for some reason I think few things sound as cool, and as elegant, as an Italian person speaking Italian in a slow, measured tone of voice. (For the record, I basically don't know any Italian.)

Turkish has a very calming effect on me. I think it's the vowel harmony. I recently watched the series Diriliş: Ertuğrul and found it to be far more entertaining than expected for mainly the linguistic exposure.

Arabic music is something I find more melodic and soothing than English.

Watching German (and sometimes French) news with or without subtitles is useful because it lends not just a different perspective, but a completely divergent understanding because of the editorial choices.

Spanish...I use Spanish on almost a weekly basis, news, music, speaking (mainly in restaurants and shops), reading. Vivo con Español.

I would love to find media resources for Mandarin and Japanese, but I haven't really put as much effort into it as I should.

I didn't like English for a long time myself, but I think I've come to appreciate it more by learning about the many varieties spoken in the UK and, to some extent, talking about dialect variation in North American English here.

I find that the reason why it's awkward for me to talk dirty with Indians is cultural. Indians very rarely talk about sex and often don't know how to swear in their own languages. Not that many Indians have ever heard of the Kama Sutra; such literature is very difficult to find in India itself (even just finding vernacular literature of any kind is hard enough). Some Indians can't even comprehend the concept of swearwords existing in their own languages even if they swear in English.

Finnish feels *cold* to me, never mind cool.

I get my impressions of foreign languages based largely on their music. Irish Gaelic, Mandarin Chinese, and Korean are all languages in which I've only heard female singers, mostly with very high pitched voices. So those three all sound like fairies' languages to me, Gaelic in particular because most of my exposure has been from Enya who only uses about one consonant per verse.

But everyone's different. When I said I liked Mandarin to someone I knew online, he was so surprised that he assumed I had confused it with Japanese.

I agree that Finnish can feel cold, but I guess I associate high pitched singing with cold weather, and so a lot of the deep-voiced male Finnish singers Ive heard have changed my opinion of it. Finnish is a very good singing language, and my personal favorite of all the languages of Europe.

I really like the sounds of French and Portuguese. From reading French comics, I get the impression that the language French speakers (well, comics writers from a few decades ago) think is cool and sophisticated is Italian. From Se una notte d'inverno un viaggiatore I got the impression what what Italians think is cool is anything but Italian.

But the language I've fallen in love with most recently is Sanskrit. It's like Greek with the sharp edges filed off, or Sindarin if you enjoy not just sweet but savory.

I just ran across this in a Youtube comment on a song by the French band La Femme:

un type wrote:Je suis sûr que si le morceau était sorti en Anglais, personne n'aurait bronché car l'anglais est plus mélodieux que le français, or ce morceau à une belle mélodie et le fait de chanter en français crée une sorte de dissonance que certains n'ont pas l'habitude d'entendre.

some guy wrote:I'm sure that if this piece had come out in English, no one would have flinched, because English is more melodious than French-- now this piece has a beautiful melody and the fact that it's sung in French creates a sort of dissonance that certain people are not used to hearing.

I have always felt so weird about this song being in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le7R39q-KVs. It's like when Malayalee priests take religious chants (in church in particular) and try to translate those into English. It just doesn't fit the rhythm or the tune. Even the English itself is pretty odd.

Swearing is a lot easier and more versatile in English I think whcih one reason I swear more it than other languages and so one reason I prefer others.

There are surely other things I could add later.

I find Navajo language very cool and local people should revitalize it... even though I speak another (somewhat) endangered language (Javanese) that I should've been immersed in. Yes, I'm a hypocrite.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:23 pm I just ran across this in a Youtube comment on a song by the French band La Femme:

un type wrote:Je suis sûr que si le morceau était sorti en Anglais, personne n'aurait bronché car l'anglais est plus mélodieux que le français, or ce morceau à une belle mélodie et le fait de chanter en français crée une sorte de dissonance que certains n'ont pas l'habitude d'entendre.

some guy wrote:I'm sure that if this piece had come out in English, no one would have flinched, because English is more melodious than French-- now this piece has a beautiful melody and the fact that it's sung in French creates a sort of dissonance that certain people are not used to hearing.

That's... absolutely bizarre, because it's the complete opposite of how English speakers typically think of the two languages. I can't quite believe someone would say this in earnest.

(That said, have you seen a phonetic transcription of French?? It certainly doesn't look melodious)

In the US, most languages besides English and Spanish are primarily "home languages." Over a million Americans speak Korean, but nearly all of them use English primarily or exclusively outside the home. Most of their interaction with Korean music and culture will be from Korea itself. It would be easy in that situation to see English as the default language of modern global culture, and Korean as the language of family dinners and Skype calls to grandma. Not much opportunity to use hip new slang and avant-garde swear words.

... have you seen a phonetic transcription of French?? It certainly doesn't look melodious

I don't particularly find French melodious in any sense, but I can see why people might like it, the same way some people like Klingon, or Arabic, or Inuit throat singing.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:11 am Swearing is a lot easier and more versatile in English I think whcih one reason I swear more it than other languages and so one reason I prefer others.

I find it fairly boring compared to some other languages. You can build up some truly impressive strings of obscenities in Russian or Quebec French. The latter also has the novelty value that nearly all the words wouldn’t be considered swears at all in English. Plus they have a healthy assortment of “minced oaths” (taboo deformations) to accommodate varying levels of offensiveness.

German and Mandarin strike me as about as boring as English. Taiwanese Hokkien is much more fun to swear in according to my friend who lived there. Maybe there are some German dialects with better cursing. Bavarian seems to have some interesting words, for instance. One of my college roommates was fond of saying “Kruzitürken!” and Goethe only knows where he picked that up from.

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:15 am That's... absolutely bizarre, because it's the complete opposite of how English speakers typically think of the two languages. I can't quite believe someone would say this in earnest.

(That said, have you seen a phonetic transcription of French?? It certainly doesn't look melodious)

Neither does English! We have loads of consonant clusters and some really clunky vowels.

Of course, people make adjustments when singing, and a good singer can make any language sound great. (These would make an interesting study, in fact— has some linguist done so?)