Zompist Bboard Again

In the article about Barakhun, there's a map labelled in Barakhinei. On this map just north of Barakhun is a small circle labeled "(F)" with two cities: "Tirond" and "Shandarukh" (sp?). If you go the map on the page for Eretald, there's a similar dot labelled (V) with "Perecaln" and "Čiron-sur-Zandar". It seems like this is a small Verdurian colony in the mountains? But it isn't on the historical atlas.

What is this place?

Gotta use the accents for the search to work.

http://www.almeopedia.com/almeo.html?P%E9recaln

Pérecaln in fact was the destination for the very first Verdurian D&D wilderness expedition.

Ah, darn! Thank you!

Resurrecting this line of interest!

Do you have notes about this storyline still? What did the adventurers find in Pérecaln? Are the Spasiecs still in charge up there?

Probably taking the castle back firmly under control is useful for Abend in (spoiler redacted)...

I've gone back to working on the Žambey dynasty and their history in the 3400s, and Pérecaln is so far playing a big part in it.

Anything you have on Pérecaln and its inhabitants from 3420 to 3480 would be muchly appreciated, even if it's just remembered details from DMing back in what I presume was probably the 80s!

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:09 pm Anything you have on Pérecaln and its inhabitants from 3420 to 3480 would be muchly appreciated, even if it's just remembered details from DMing back in what I presume was probably the 80s!

Starting in the (very late) 70s, my dude. I'll try to find my notes!

Something I was meaning to ask - did Zanuy have some kind of important D&D role? I think I saw it mentioned in a couple of Verdurian materials but AFAIK there wasn't an Almeopedia article about it.

So Haleza Grise wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:23 pm Something I was meaning to ask - did Zanuy have some kind of important D&D role? I think I saw it mentioned in a couple of Verdurian materials but AFAIK there wasn't an Almeopedia article about it.

No, the D&D campaign never went there. It's just a Somoyi proto-state, given a bit of exoticism by being on the edge of the map.

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:09 pm Anything you have on Pérecaln and its inhabitants from 3420 to 3480 would be muchly appreciated, even if it's just remembered details from DMing back in what I presume was probably the 80s!

Oh man, you asked for it. I looked at my notes and they're not very helpful. Lots of character sheets, some edicts, the original wilderness map, my calendar... most of it embarrassing. Perhaps the most presentable bit is this description of the basic scenario. Now, the big caveat is that this, like all the material, was notes prepared for the DM; it wasn't intended for posterity.

Early Zomp wrote:The tax gatherer reports to the King's advisor Abend (Monteneon, also a member of the King's Council) that a group of adventurers has taken over a magic shop in the Scafiora. Abend sends a messenger to summon them to the dalušeira on the pretext that they do not have a lease for the shop.

Abend presents them with a royal lease (and the promise of future reward) on condition that they undertake a mission for the King.

They are to take a message and a box to the fort of Pérecaln, the Verdurian outpost that warns against the orcs and other attackers from the savannah. It is in some sort of trouble. The King wants to know what is going on, the message and box are to be delivered to the Lord of Pérecaln, who is currently Obad Surcont Spasitëly, and the adventurers are to help defeat whatever is besetting the castle; they must then return to report to Abend and the King.

The group is not to read the message (which is sealed into a scroll, sealed with Alric's seal) nor open the box, which is a small 10-pound wooden box.

To assist them Abend gives them a few magic items, a letter of safe conduct signed by Alric, and as a guide the 9th-level magic-user Pelerin Bruyer. And they're off!

==But what they don't know==

1. Bruyer tends to act mysterious and to slip off at night; at the crux he is either absent or comes through quietly. Unknown to the players, and to Abend, he is actually in the pay of the Nasty of Mutkün, and in the hopes of reward, he is leading the players into Mutkün so as to give the Nasty the box. Thus he will want to keep it safe till then! He does not know exactly what is in the box, only that it is a talisman of great power; to the characters he will not say even this. He does not care about the message. He would like to deliver the group to the Nasty too, but he isn't so particular about that. He is neither cursed nor evil, and magic will reveal his alignment as neutral.

2. [omitting an irrelevant baddie]

==And at Pérecaln?==

As the adventurers will discover when they reach it, Pérecaln is under a spell. Its defense is shot to hell; monsters abound. Its men (probably 300 fighters, a few clerics and so on) are all sitting around playing cards, drinking, sleeping, even fighting among themselves. In fighting, none use their shields, and their weapons are used very badly (-6 hit, -4 damage). They ae obviously cursed. They say only that they have orders not to talk. Under hypnosis or whatever they can only tell of a strange old man who appeared one night in a thunderstorm wishing to see the lord of Pérecaln, and bewitched him; none have seen him since.

The old man is actually an evil high priest of great power; he has killed Spasitëly and assumed his form. His true name is Goša, if the characters call him by it they will gain +2 on all saving throws.

[Omitting details of his retinue]

Some notes:
1. This is perhaps the first appearance of Abend.
2. Spasitëly is straight Russian; it was changed to the more Verdurian Spasiec.
3. Orcs?? Listen, this was straight D&D, everything in the Monster Manual was fair game.

Most importantly, what happened? Unfortunately I don't recall. My notes say they reached Pérecaln in almost 4 months. Bruyer was killed at some point. They did take care of the problem and reported back to the king, but the details are lost. My girlfriend and I were writing up the adventures but we didn't get this far. I do recall that there was, um, some miscommunication-- there was a warrant for the party's arrest. But that got sorted out.

I do have a plan of the castle and a nice picture.

No information on the Spasieci, Also I don't promise that the above account is even canonical. I mean, Almean magic is no longer D&D magic, so there are no curses. Something bad happened though!

Oh - thank you so much for digging this out! I really like seeing some of the origins material for what grew later here, e.g. first appearance of Abend, which is cool. (And fun to think of the days when there was potentially a comparable level of detail in a D&D handbook you could relate to Almea as in your output...) I wonder if you felt the potential in what you were doing then to grow to the level it did?

I imagine that the bare bones of this are still ok ‒ minus the orcs and the curse, there could still have been a coup at the castle by a wizard named Goša, ousting Obad surcont Spasiec?

No reason, I guess, that common folk can't spread rumours that monsters of some kind have taken up in a castle, perhaps as metaphors for bad leadership ‒ dragon and vampire legends seem to be linked to this in many places.

And royal interest in retaking the castle seems perfectly realistic (and a role for Abend, if you want to keep it in, in arranging an expedition to work out what's really going on?).

I would love to see the castle map and pretty picture ‒ and to be honest, even if it is highly embarrassing for some reason, I'm itching to see the original wilderness map. As you've noticed I guess, one of my preoccupations in the Almeomusica project is Lácatur and its cross-cultural, liminal nature ‒ it's great for breeding the most orthodox-adjacent bits of ‘the other’, if that makes sense.

More specifically, as I indicated, I want to set a good portion of the Žambey dynastic story in Pérecaln and the Western Wild (NB for readers this is a musical family that dominate and transform Eretaldan music in the 35th century).

Getting a feel for even a pre-canonical version of the area in more detail would therefore be cool.

For anyone following this, here is a little story, set in the environs of Pérecaln, that illustrates an episode in the Žambey family story as well as suggesting the origin of pitch standards in Eretald, and illustrating some names of pitches in Verduria (each is named after a god).

It feels like a kind of origin story the family would tell about itself ‒ not saying it necessarily actually happened like this.

And after work I will post my notes so far on the dynasty.

sasasha wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:43 am I wonder if you felt the potential in what you were doing then to grow to the level it did?

I didn't really think very far ahead! I think Past Me would have been thrilled to see the Historical Atlas of Almea. Maybe less happy with Industrial Age for, well, religious reasons.

I imagine that the bare bones of this are still ok ‒ minus the orcs and the curse, there could still have been a coup at the castle by a wizard named Goša, ousting Obad surcont Spasiec?

Yes, exactly. The Verdurian Nobility page still has Spasiec as surcont... but it can be assumed to be up to date as of 1 olašu 3480, before the expedition to Pérecaln!

I do recall Goša was defeated, but I have forgotten the details. If there was a remote relative, he/she would inherit.

I would love to see the castle map and pretty picture ‒ and to be honest, even if it is highly embarrassing for some reason, I'm itching to see the original wilderness map. As you've noticed I guess, one of my preoccupations in the Almeomusica project is Lácatur and its cross-cultural, liminal nature ‒ it's great for breeding the most orthodox-adjacent bits of ‘the other’, if that makes sense.

OK, sure.

Castle plan

View of the castle. The emphasis was on its unapproachability except by one access road.

The actual wilderness map

Compare to the (canonical) map of Eretald here.

There's a boatload of jokes and allusions on the map, which you're welcome to try to figure out. (Not all are canonical, but some are!) One that won't be very obvious: the stretch of coast to the north is pretty much based on the Northwestern University campus. The town of "Elder" is a reference to Elder Hall, where Chris Vargas and I lived; "Tech" is the Technological Institute where most of our classes were, and which we used as a dungeon in the campaign.

Oh, just realized that that map doesn't actually extend to Pérecaln. It's not really worth another picture— it doesn't have as much stuff in it. Find the Tulgey Wood in the upper left of the map; there is a "Gr. W. Rd." marked on it— the Great Western Road. You follow this west another 12 hexes to Beliaun, then take the Pérecaln Road another 13 hexes west and south to Čiron-sur-Zandar. Now you follow the road, four hexes southeast to the castle.

If you look carefully at the map you'll see red dots in some hexes; those are places the adventurers went, over a few campaigns.

Ahh, so that's where "nashtorî" comes from! Lol.

Ok!! Fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing these.

A few reactions/questions:

- The castle has both a church and a temple. If this is canonical - since when, and why? Do they co-exist happily?

- I'd sort of love the other map, no matter how scant or outdated (you might remember I wrote a piece named after Beliaun, too: the environs of these places, and how they might connect and interact, can be creatively fertile!)

- Did you borrow Mišicama from Michigan? Was the shape of Verduria's coastline consciously influenced by Lake Michigan? Or is this just a bit of fun, like the campus-inspired names?

- It's really useful to have a sort of semi-real example of how long a big journey through this kind of area by land might take. Four months! (I can't help but feel that our world is somehow poorer from having lost these immense distances in time and effort separating places we now just take the motorway between without thinking.)

- Is there a dragon in the pretty picture? (And did you ever decide whether Jeerio really sees a dragon...?)

Here is the first part of the Žambey family history, covering roughly the 3200s and 3300s. (I'm working on the 3400s in some more detail, and will update later.) It's all foundational for the work of Poncör Žambey (who doesn't exist on this chart yet) and his 7 children, most of whom contribute significantly to Eretaldan music into 3480.

The point we get to - Kaidan Vuraneonei Žambey - brings us to the setting of the short story I posted a couple of days ago (The Minstrel and the Rods). The Minstrel and the Rods is set between 3420 and 3425, during the reoccupation of Pérecaln by King Vlaran in the first years of his reign.

This is patrilineal and scanty on further details. This is due to Verdurian patronymics, and inheritance customs: it's easy to trace who someone's father is, and property is inherited by the eldest male child, if one exists.

In this and many other features I may be misinformed. Particularly, I couldn't recall while making this whether pagan priests in this period can marry (and inherit). It won't completely break it if they can't; this is a first draft, anyway. (No, they didn't all reproduce at exactly 30 years old! I'll need to tweak the dates later.)

Dasco Nečeronei Žambey - b. 3218
A baker serving locally famous baked treats in Scušana. He was said to hold a good tune on the lüra.

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Efaristo Dascei Žambey - b. 3255 (37)
In 3304, when Mëranac 1e conquered Ctésifon, Efaristo Žambey was granted a minor noble title (in the province of Ctésifon) for distinguished military service, and moved to a small but well-located estate in the outskirts of Žésifo.

The family continued to support the Abolinerons, and was loyal to Icëlana; when Ctésifon regained its independence and in the wake of the Civil War the Žambeys’ title was downgraded, though the family maintained an amount of wealth and influence due to its association with the Temple of Enäron and Išira [need advice].

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Pelerin Efaristei Žambey - b. 3289 (34)
The second son of Efaristo Žambey, Pelerin attended the cletana in and became a distinguished priest (cüre) in Ctésifon’s Temple of Enäron and Išira. (The first son, Dasco Efaristei Žambey, continued his father’s estate and a military career.)

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Oporo Pelerinei Žambey - b. 3315 (26)
Priest, sent to the Cletana Aďië at Lake Como, eventually became a cüre and the Director of Ceremonies at the temple of Enäron and Išira.

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Taidan Oporei Žambey - b. 3341 (26)
Priest (altcliďu) and organist, oversaw the installation of an organ (a Xurnese novelty, adapted for Eretaldan taste and musical predilection) in the temple of Enäron and Išira.
(His second cousin, Medro Dascei Žambey, was executed for treason during the Abolineron dynastic struggle and reassertion of Ctésifoni independence under the Aďlon dynasty. Taidan, having gained the interest, if not quite respect, of the Žésifo establishment through the organ project, managed to organise to inherit the family estate, on the proviso that a portion of it was donated to King Čipelric, and a portion to the Temple.)

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Šm. Vuraneon Taidanei Žambey - b.3363 (22)
A printer rather than priest by trade, specialising in music printing, Vuraneon nevertheless continued his family’s prestigious affiliation, becoming keeper of the Žésifo Enäron and Išira temple’s music library. He also worked for the Irun Academy on developing new styles of musical type. Children: Kaidan and Kutro Vuraneonei Žambey. His wife, Lereže Řescörei Tire, died in childbirth with Kutro, and he didn’t remarry; Kaidan more or less brought up Kutro, as their father was rarely home.

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Kaidan Vuraneonei Žambey - b.3390 (27)
(protagonist of The Minstrel and the Rods, and brother of Kutro) - more later...

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:45 pm - The castle has both a church and a temple. If this is canonical - since when, and why? Do they co-exist happily?

About as well as these things go. Eleďát and Caďin religion have coexisted for centuries. Passions were high in the 3200s, but had died down by the 3400s. An individual priest of either religion could be either quite tolerant, or quite prickly.

- I'd sort of love the other map, no matter how scant or outdated (you might remember I wrote a piece named after Beliaun, too: the environs of these places, and how they might connect and interact, can be creatively fertile!)

It doesn't really contain any detail that's not on the canonical map. (Both were based on the map I painted on the wall. Foolishly enough, but I do have a photograph of it, expanded and hanging above my desk!)

- Did you borrow Mišicama from Michigan? Was the shape of Verduria's coastline consciously influenced by Lake Michigan? Or is this just a bit of fun, like the campus-inspired names?

Yes, it came from 'Michigan'. The Verdurian is actually closer to the Algonquian original— spelled various ways, one of which is Mishigama. Only that very bendy bit of coastline is based on the lake's shoreline. (Which is artificial— the university created a big landfill in the 1960s or so.)

- It's really useful to have a sort of semi-real example of how long a big journey through this kind of area by land might take. Four months! (I can't help but feel that our world is somehow poorer from having lost these immense distances in time and effort separating places we now just take the motorway between without thinking.)

The party had quite a lot going on which delayed them, including a guide who led them the wrong way...

Verduria-city to Pérecaln is about 320 km or 200 mi. At walking speed, let's say 12 days. For an average horse, 4 to 8 days. In 3678 you can take the train most of the way!

- Is there a dragon in the pretty picture? (And did you ever decide whether Jeerio really sees a dragon...?)

It's a pen squiggle, I'm afraid.

I haven't made a final decision on dragons, but I am very wary of going into Tolkien or Martin country! I think I've suggested before that some sort of non-flying huge reptile might exist in the steppes.

[Edit: and as it happens, that's what I drew for the Jeerio story! No wings. (I wrote "batlike wings" but there's no indication that the dragon can fly.)]

I don't think either Eleďe or Caďin priests were forbidden from marrying, though some cults would forbid it. (The Elenicoi left in AD 325, long before priestly celibacy.)

I was worried about tech development, but then was surprised to learn that the terrestrial tuning fork dates to 1711. So you're fine on time. (Though perhaps the Salon of Music had more ideas on standardization?)

property is inherited by the eldest male child

That's true of noble estates. People who had land at all (a minority in medieval times) probably tried to follow the same rule, but divided up other assets more equally.

There was a strong tendency for the oldest son to take the father's business. Individuals could always arrange otherwise.

The 'Michigan Ocean' made me laugh... I never noticed the connection!

Thank you! Interesting re the possibility of flightless dragons (that's a cool idea, and why not!?), and thanks for the detail on the travel times.

Re pitch standardisation in Xurno, I think they probably did have a concept of this from time immemorial, basing their standard pitches on brass bells which could be recast out of the same moulds in the same materials to generate the same pitches, but over the entirety of Xengiman there was still significant local variation in the pitch of the standard bells used. I guess, a way to explain this is that the Salon had every reason to take a scientific approach to documenting how pitch worked, but didn't have a reason to impose actual uniformity of practice across Xengiman. Local manufacturing cultures did their own thing. Individual theorists/scientists used the bells they had access to, and may not have travelled widely enough to realise how much their pitch standard might differ from those hundreds of miles away. Plus the bells -- and more importantly, their moulds -- were of course a little less portable than tuning forks. Also, not everyone cared about tuning to a specific bell or set of bells -- there was an elite/folk distinction at play here. Those that played music together for leisure on home-made instruments in far-flung/isolated agricultural communities simply had very localised templates for their instruments and how to tune them.

A little more detail on this in Eretald: there was a similar elite/folk distinction, but Eretald is a little smaller, and perhaps a little more interconnected. Pre-modern pitch standards were theoretically based on a kaena flute made from a particular type of reed; but the measurement was as vague as (something like) 'make a kaena from between the two highest cataracts of a mature reed and use its fundamental frequency as the note Enäron'. In practice, you just copied the kaenî you already had, though these might have detuned a fair amount from manufacture, and have been made imprecisely too. There was thus a significant random drift of local standard pitch (from various starting points), local pockets where the people didn't care that they made their instruments rather differently from their neighbours, and also (heading towards the early modern era) a significant pitch inflation effect.

Kaidan Žambey's (or rather, if the family legend is to be believed, Khalthul's) nicî hit the Zeitgeist: musicians in Eretald were just starting to travel enough, and instrument makers to manufacture in enough bulk, and scientists starting to measure accurately enough, and audiences (and singers!) to demand predictability/uniformity of tone and timbre at pitches relative to the range of the human voice over a wide enough area, that there was an appetite for a sensible method of establishing pitch standards. I figured the elcari would have been doing it for millennia, so this seemed a natural moment for the tech to be 'discovered' in Eretald. I think eventually the Xurnese will absorb the Eretaldan pitch standard: they have enough variation in their tuning bells to find some somewhere that match the new Eretaldan standard (and thus they can easily say that they are still using a native standard).

Quick question: there's a place on the huge Eretald map on the Svetla, right by the Ú of VERDÚRIA, marked C.K. or O.K.; where would this be?

(I'm making a chart of travel distances and times from Žésifo)

I've migrated this post here.

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:14 am Quick question: there's a place on the huge Eretald map on the Svetla, right by the Ú of VERDÚRIA, marked C.K. or O.K.; where would this be?

It does say C.K. It comes from another wilderness campaign, and is another inside joke (referring to Chris's favorite magazine). Might as well give it a full name though: Cuendaya Kainei.

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:53 am I think eventually the Xurnese will absorb the Eretaldan pitch standard: they have enough variation in their tuning bells to find some somewhere that match the new Eretaldan standard (and thus they can easily say that they are still using a native standard).

I'd suggest that a difference in pitch continues at least through the Industrial Age: neither the Salon nor the later regimes will have an interest in an Eretaldan standard.

They can use tuning forks, of course, they just choose a different number. Some brief research seems to show that A = 440 was not a worldwide standard here till after WWII.

Is the older continental standard (A435) noticeable to your ears?