Zompist Bboard Again

Jen is listed as 'what'. It should be when, right?

It may be easier to ask the rest of my questions in the form of a text. The "translations" below the gloss are extremely loose and convey the intended meaning. I can't vouch for the grammar. I'm not even sure I understood everything in the pdf. I just couldn't resist assembling this while browsing the Bhogetan lexicon. Corrections would be appreciated:

Madaka Kotharanta
robber cord-jewel
The Necklace Thief

Hagayaśa glita, drasa yeŋe oyicar.
cry-inc-at tears / shatter-at night calm
Crying breaks out, shattering the calm night.

Yañanña patniś.
compl-speak-near princess
The princess says:

Lanato mabhartsubhada.
arrive-poss-at advisor-pl
Assemble, counselors.

Bubhutokña kotharanta.
compl-lack-advers-near cord-jewel
(My) necklace was stolen (away from me).

Sasarwa milyirpata, kukrutokwa tur cabh mujultata.
compl-surge-far guard-pl / compl-push-advers-far behind three prisoner-pl
Guards surge in, pushing in three prisoners from behind.

Sasarkurwa maghadanaj.
compl-rage-far swordsman-great
The chief of the guards swells in rage.

Jijhilnamwa maghadanaj, totrotwa pranas jih.
compl-cut-metal-far swordsman-great / compl-die-far enemies all
One swing at the prisoners, and all his enemies perish!

Lanataśa madhira, ñeka yañana.
arrive-inc-at sage / and compl-say-at
The sage enters and says:

Momotanwa maghadanaj.
compl-fool-far swordsman-great
That chief of guards is such a moron!

Rantata uŋ jito?
jewel-pl of where
Where is the jewelry?

Yañanña monobobha.
compl-speak-near lunatic
The jester pipes up:

Phurwa wo madaka, dhriwaśña.
exist-far far robber / find-inc-near
I will find the thief.

Phurwa mujultata, onatwa jo?
exist-far prisoner-pl named-far what
These prisoners, what were they called?

Yañana madhira.
compl-speak-at sage
The sage replies:

Malaghwa cedha cira; onatwa Dhibageta.
teacher-far man first / named-far life-eternal
The first man was a teacher called Eternal Life.

Rukilwa padha ul Phrunaśa; onatwa Throkathehiciś.
second-far noble from Phrunaśa / named defeats-thehiciś
The second was a noble from Phrunaśa named Thehiciś Defeats.

Chiranwa mujulta welata; onatwa Jhilagadha.
boss-far prisoner last / named the-sword-cuts
The last prisoner was a foreman known as The Sword Cuts.

Yañanwa milyirpa.
compl-speak-far guard
A guard adds:

Jwatlo dakwa, mimighwe chi jabhya.
when theft-far / compl-sacrifice-poss-far one face
Rumor has it that at the time of the theft, one of these faces might have been offering a sacrifice.

Note: Am I right in thinking dakwa's subject is optional? (Edit: Answered.)

Śaśarmyamwe myarat.
compl-drink-excess-poss-far other
Another may have been drunk.

Note: Unsure how to "simplify" myanam 'excess'. (Edit: Answered.)

Yañana madhira.
compl-speak-at sage
Spake our sage:

Dadakwa jo?
compl-steal-far who
Who stole (the necklace)?

Yañanramña monobobha.
compl-speak-good-near lunatic
The jester waxes eloquent:

Note: For the following sentences, I'm not sure whether to use exist, see, topicalization or something else. (Edit: First two sentences fixed.)

Wedhwa mapadha gam mitigha, wedhwa Yalirañil.
see-far lord of temple / see-far Yalirañil
Yalirañil is the lord of our temple.

Phurwa padha ul Phrunaśa, mo babhaswa uŋ mitigha.
exist-far noble from Phrunaśa / not compl-reside-far in temple
The temple is no alibi for a Phrunaśan noble.

Note: The example on page 23 says bhatwa. I don't know why it's not bhaswa. (Edit: Answered.)

Phura ghlara śubh Dhibageta, pyac mrocña; babhaswa uŋ paticha.
exist-far dung over Dhibageta / like smell-near / compl-reside-far in tavern
Eternal Life smells like shit. Oh, he's definitely hit the alehouse today.

Ghas dadakwa Throkathehiciś.
so compl-steal-far Throkathehiciś
That means Thehiciś Defeats nicked it for sure.

The intended reasoning is as follows: One prisoner was seen at the temple at the time of the incident. Another was drunk in the tavern. The other was the thief. The teacher was drunk. The Phrunaśan ambassador, the jester claims, is a diehard Thehiciś supporter, so he wouldn't be offering sacrifice to Yalirañil. Therefore, he must be the thief.

Yañana madhira.
compl-speak-at sage
The sage answers:

Madaka monobobha!
comp-steal-at jester
The jester has the bloody necklace!

Edit: Corrected one mistake. Should be maghadanaj, not mujultata.

Edit 2: Bubhutokwa, not Dadakokwa.

Edit 3: Altered yet another unaccusative error in the alehouse line. Don't know if I fixed it or made it worse.

Edit 4: Added -inc to find. I'm starting to think I should have revised this before posting it.

Edit 5: Fixed unaccusative in find line.

Edit 6: Incorporated some suggestions.

Edit 7: I tried to fix the distance markings.

Edit 8: Fixed the princess' command.

Edit 9: Incorporated comments about the princess' distance. Re-added the demonstratives that I removed by mistake. Yet another attempt at fixing the alehouse line.

Edit 10: Still confused, but I put near-distance on the missing-hood unaccusative as asked.

Impressive work! I'm not going to look at it line-by-line right now, but I'll try to answer the questions.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:05 pm Jen is listed as 'what'. It should be when, right?

Right.

One thing I do notice is that the distance inflections are often wrong. E.g.:

Dadakokwa Bubhutokwa ñe kotharanta.
compl-lack-advers-far near cord-jewel
My necklace was stolen (away from me).

Inanimate objects don't take up a slot, so they use the princess's distance. She is speaking of herself, to her counselors, so that's near distance.

Sasara milyirpata, kukrutokwa tur cabh mujultata.
compl-surge-at guard-pl / compl-push-advers-far behind three prisoner-pl
Guards surge in, pushing in three prisoners from behind.

At-distance is used for the main character, which these guards certainly are not. Should be far-distance.

Admittedly, it gets confusing with multiple characters. However, I'd say the overall analysis is this:

1. The princess is the (first) protagonist. It's fine to use at-distance for her.
2. After that, she disappears, so I would use these assignments:
the sage: at
the jester: near
guards/prisoners: far
3. Naturally, reported speech is from the point of view of the speaker.

Ce mujultata yajo yajio?
at prisoner-pl know-poss know-irr
Are these prisoners known persons?

Yaja is meant for knowing things, not people. I think I'd say the equivalent of "They are named?" Obviously they are named, but it's a good way to ask what the names are or more broadly to see if we know these people.

Note: Am I right in thinking dakwa's subject is optional?

Sure. It's equivalent to "when someone stole..."

Śaśarmyanwe myarat.
compl-drink-excess-poss-far other
Another may have been drunk.

Note: Unsure how to "simplify" myanam 'excess'.

Let's say "myam".

Note: For the following sentences, I'm not sure whether to use exist, see, topicalization or something else.

Phurña mitigha gam Yalirañil; mo mimighwa padha ul Phrunaśa.
exist-near temple of Yalirañil / not compl-sacrifice-far noble from Phrunaśa
Ours is a temple to Yalirañil. A noble of Phrunaśa would not sacrifice (there).

What you have is correct according to the grammar, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.

How about "See the lord of the temple, see Yalirañil"? (Cf. the section on Copula.)

Note: The example on page 23 says bhatwa. I don't know why it's not bhaswa.

My mistake!

I'm curious, do the frequent Sanskrit borrowings make it easier or harder?

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:12 pm Admittedly, it gets confusing with multiple characters. However, I'd say the overall analysis is this:

1. The princess is the (first) protagonist. It's fine to use at-distance for her.
2. After that, she disappears, so I would use these assignments:
the sage: at
the jester: near
guards/prisoners: far
3. Naturally, reported speech is from the point of view of the speaker.

I see. I assumed the storyteller is the speaker. When characters are done speaking their thoughts, distance reverts back to me.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:12 pm Yaja is meant for knowing things, not people. I think I'd say the equivalent of "They are named?" Obviously they are named, but it's a good way to ask what the names are or more broadly to see if we know these people.

...

Let's say "myam".

Thanks.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:12 pm What you have is correct according to the grammar, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.

How about "See the lord of the temple, see Yalirañil"? (Cf. the section on Copula.)

Yes, that's an improvement.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:12 pm I'm curious, do the frequent Sanskrit borrowings make it easier or harder?

I don't think they made a difference, but I enjoyed them as easter eggs.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:12 pm She is speaking of herself, to her counselors, so that's near distance.

I don't understand this. Near-distance is for the speaker, right? The princess is telling her counselors to assemble. The way I see it, the counselors are at at-distance relative to her, so the verb for assemble should be at-distance. Could you please explain this?

Edit: Oh, I see. It's because the princess is the protagonist so far.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:28 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:12 pm She is speaking of herself, to her counselors, so that's near distance.

I don't understand this. Near-distance is for the speaker, right? The princess is telling her counselors to assemble. The way I see it, the counselors are at at-distance relative to her, so the verb for assemble should be at-distance. Could you please explain this?

Edit: Oh, I see. It's because the princess is the protagonist so far.

Just not be clear: when she talks to her counselors, she should use near-distance (not far-distance) for herself, at-distance for the counselors.

The protagonist convention is involved for what we'd call third-person or narrative statements— e.g. the guards surging in.

I assumed the storyteller is the speaker. When characters are done speaking their thoughts, distance reverts back to me.

You could do that if the storyteller is also a participant. There are only three slots, so you don't want a convention that puts one out of use for the whole story.

But even if the storyteller is a participant— e.g. the princess is telling the story— thing like the guards rushing in occur at far-distance.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:30 pm Just not be clear: when she talks to her counselors, she should use near-distance (not far-distance) for herself, at-distance for the counselors.

She originally did use at-distance for the counselors, near-distance for the necklace and far-distance on the verb denoting its missing-hood.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:30 pm But even if the storyteller is a participant— e.g. the princess is telling the story— thing like the guards rushing in occur at far-distance.

I thought the princess is another character in the story. I didn't really conceive this story in terms of protagonists- more like a semiotic grid. If I had a main character, they would be undermining the monarchy to protect the human rights of the prisoners or something.

Where is this pdf? I never saw this language before.

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:51 am Where is this pdf? I never saw this language before.

It's on Patreon!

Ah. Sadly I don't have income so I can't pay.

The Patreon material will mostly end up on my site sooner or later.

And I haven't yet been able to pay with a prepaid card.

The grammar is now public.

(It's in PDF form so I could do this quickly...)

Do any real world languages actually work like Bhögetan or is it like Elkaril?

thethief3 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:35 pm Do any real world languages actually work like Bhögetan or is it like Elkaril?

Elkarîl pronouns are modeled on ASL. ASL pronouns are deictic in all three persons, with the understanding that third person can be referred to by pointing to an arbitrary spot.

This is extremely common in spoken languages with third person: pronouns either are demonstratives, or are closely related to them.

Deictic second pronouns (as in Bhögetan) exist in Japanese at least-- anata 'you' derives from something like 'that over there'.

A deictic first person pronoun is sometimes used in Mandarin-- 本人 běn rén 'this person'.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:42 pm

thethief3 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:35 pm Do any real world languages actually work like Bhögetan or is it like Elkaril?

Elkarîl pronouns are modeled on ASL. ASL pronouns are deictic in all three persons, with the understanding that third person can be referred to by pointing to an arbitrary spot.

This is extremely common in spoken languages with third person: pronouns either are demonstratives, or are closely related to them.

Deictic second pronouns (as in Bhögetan) exist in Japanese at least-- anata 'you' derives from something like 'that over there'.

A deictic first person pronoun is sometimes used in Mandarin-- 本人 běn rén 'this person'.

The more prominent question is are there any which completely lack Transative verbs?

thethief3 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:06 am The more prominent question is are there any which completely lack Transative verbs?

Ah right. That's not based on a natlang example, I think... I thought it'd be a good challenge!

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:24 am

thethief3 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:06 am The more prominent question is are there any which completely lack Transative verbs?

Ah right. That's not based on a natlang example, I think... I thought it'd be a good challenge!

It's okay i'm currently working on something with no natlang precedent either (a.k.a marking sentence structure on the subject).

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:11 pm The grammar is now public.

(It's in PDF form so I could do this quickly...)

Oh, excellent news! I’ve merely skimmed the grammar, but this one looks particularly interesting even by Almean standards.

One question: how does one pronounce Bhöɣetan, given that the language you describe has neither ⟨ö⟩ nor ⟨ɣ⟩?

Also, are you planning to add it to Virtual Verduria any time soon?

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:58 am One question: how does one pronounce Bhöɣetan, given that the language you describe has neither ⟨ö⟩ nor ⟨ɣ⟩?

As noted, Bhöɣeta is the Phrunaśan form. It should be straightforward: murmured-voice bh, front rounded ö, voiced velar fricative ɣ.

Also, are you planning to add it to Virtual Verduria any time soon?

Well, it is, in that there's a link to the grammar there. Do you mean you prefer an HTML version?

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:20 am

Also, are you planning to add it to Virtual Verduria any time soon?

Well, it is, in that there's a link to the grammar there. Do you mean you prefer an HTML version?

Oh, I didn’t notice that, sorry! But yes, if it’s easy enough to make, it would be nice to have an HTML version, fully integrated with the rest of the site (hosted on zompist.com, listed in the top imagemap etc.).