Zompist Bboard Again

I like this kind of hypotheticals

In 200 BC a group of Germanic peoples roughly equal to population of Magna Germania are teleported to Japan. They quickly subjugate both the Jomon and Yayoi people, assimilate 0% Asian them and as a result they gain some 20-30% Asian DNA. Language is unaffected.

What interesting directions could Proto Germanic take in such a scenario? The Germanic Japan will be culturally influenced by China and will not even know of Europe for good 1700 years in the best case.

Could this Japanese Germanic language borrow areal features like classifiers, limited number of syllabes etc

Some time ago a similar scenario was discussed on this board, but with Latin instead of Proto Germanic. Rather unfortunately, I cannot find it, but the gist is that it all depends on population size - a Roman legion teleported to the Japanese archipelago roughly 0 AD is for a brief time very influential, but after three or four generation leaves little more than some toponyms and personal names, in terms of linguistic heritage.

Not this forum it was CBB and it was my thread

In my Germanic scenerio Germanics would outnumber native Japanese population 3 to 1 and would conquer the island very quickly. The native Yayoi and Jomon would not even leave a linguistic mark

But there is a question - will prolonged contact with Chinese change the language in other eays than by borrowing?

Probably about as much as it did on Japanese and Korean, though I don't know why you wouldn't want a substratum, too.

Note, this is a conworlding idea and I'm going to move it to Conlangery.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:29 pmIn my Germanic scenerio Germanics would outnumber native Japanese population 3 to 1 and would conquer the island very quickly. The native Yayoi and Jomon would not even leave a linguistic mark

If the Jomon and Yayoi are outnumbered but not exterminated, why would they not leave so much as a mark? (I could buy it if you said they don't leave a massive mark, but none at all?)

A slight mark may as well be

Consider the United States - European settlers and their slaves far outnumbered the native population, which was decimated by disease and driven onto reservations, yet you can find many placenames (e.g. here in Wisconsin) which are clearly of native origin.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:31 pm Consider the United States - European settlers and their slaves far outnumbered the native population, which was decimated by disease and driven onto reservations, yet you can find many placenames (e.g. here in Wisconsin) which are clearly of native origin.

Or just England, where even multiple waves (Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Romans, etc) didn't erase all of the native influence.....I think Dr. McWhorter (in What language is - and what language isn't) mentions the Celtic/Welsh "periphrasic "do", that Germanic (and I assume French) don't do.

Honestly, not to be overly critical, but I feel that if the preceding inhabitants don't leave much of a linguistic mark it's afar less interesting scenario. I think a primarily Germanic Shikoku adjacent to a Yamato dominated Honshuu could be extremely interesting, then you'd get Sinitic + Japonic + possibly other influences.

That would, indeed, be very interesting. You could also have Germanic Kyuushuu, if you would rather. Japonic is such an interesting thing I shouldn't like to see it erased, but I have my very obvious biases.

I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?

That's also a possibility.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?

That's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit differently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set up

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?

T being hat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit beinngdifferently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set up

Is 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?


If you want IE population in Japan, work with an idea of Greek speaking Jews being expelled from Rome and ending up in Japan

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:09 am Is 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?

Look at Afrikaans or many a creole language.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:09 am

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?

T being hat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit beinngdifferently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set up

Is 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?


If you want IE population in Japan, work with an idea of Greek speaking Jews being expelled from Rome and ending up in Japan

Persia and India say hi.

Edit: Potential for a large Zoroastrian population fleeing Islamic conquests would certainly exist, I think.

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?

That's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit differently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set up

Could the Christians have preserved a working knowledge of Latin? It seems that they didn't.

Why not? Jews maintained knowledge of Hebrew for millenia.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:09 am

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?

T being hat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit beinngdifferently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set up

Is 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?

English suggests it is.

wait...whats the yardstick for serious ?

If you want IE population in Japan, work with an idea of Greek speaking Jews being expelled from Rome and ending up in Japan

then why not just use (Crassus?) and his soldiers being shuttled about until they end up in Japan? (didn't they reportedly end up in China as it was?)

or use Tocharian.