Zompist Bboard Again

That title was hard to write, because I used to really enjoy his videos. But the joy was weathered away, leaving a core of pointless nonsense.

Let's start with the phonology section. Like a lot of amateur conlangers, Misali seems to think that “phonology” means “a chart of consonants and vowels, plus maybe some allophony.” Then he looks at the chart and says whether or not he likes it. Now, I admit I don't really understand what he's looking for but it seems to vary based on the language's purpose. I've complained before that he expects people to give up learning an IAL if it has /f/ in it or something, but when it comes to artlangs, he has the opposite expectation. For High Valyrian, he complained that the chart (i.e. “the phonology”) didn't have anything really new and innovative in it. I would love to see this guy judge a work of architecture: “The Great Pyramid of Giza has the following components: Oxygen, Carbon, Calcium, Magnesium. I don't see anything really mind-blowing there.”

The rest of the video is usually Misali pointing out random things he likes, a la Peterson's Smiley Awards. I guess I don't really have a bone to pick with the format, but it all comes across as terribly dry. If you know something about these languages already it's dull, and if you don't it's scattershot and gives you little feel for what the language actually does. I desperately want some advance in production values: original music, drawings, or poetry, maybe just a change of scenery. I usually can't make it all the way through a video of Misali saying “Hey look, it has inalienable possession. And over here there's a definite suffix.”

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am I desperately want some advance in production values: original music, drawings, or poetry, maybe just a change of scenery. I usually can't make it all the way through a video of Misali saying “Hey look, it has inalienable possession. And over here there's a definite suffix.”

I'm a bit confused. Isn't that a problem of the conlangers he reviews, due to them not making media, rather than his problem? I mean, I don't know Misali but I gather he doesn't make videos of his own conlangs...

This reminds me of guitarplayer's observation that media is what appealed to him most about conlangs, but conlangers tend to emphasize grammars instead. So he (guitarplayer) tried to do things like art with Ayeri script on it or that recording of a translation of a passage of Kafka.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am That title was hard to write, because I used to really enjoy his videos. But the joy was weathered away, leaving a core of pointless nonsense.

Let's start with the phonology section. Like a lot of amateur conlangers, Misali seems to think that “phonology” means “a chart of consonants and vowels, plus maybe some allophony.” Then he looks at the chart and says whether or not he likes it. Now, I admit I don't really understand what he's looking for but it seems to vary based on the language's purpose. I've complained before that he expects people to give up learning an IAL if it has /f/ in it or something, but when it comes to artlangs, he has the opposite expectation. For High Valyrian, he complained that the chart (i.e. “the phonology”) didn't have anything really new and innovative in it. I would love to see this guy judge a work of architecture: “The Great Pyramid of Giza has the following components: Oxygen, Carbon, Calcium, Magnesium. I don't see anything really mind-blowing there.”

The rest of the video is usually Misali pointing out random things he likes, a la Peterson's Smiley Awards. I guess I don't really have a bone to pick with the format, but it all comes across as terribly dry. If you know something about these languages already it's dull, and if you don't it's scattershot and gives you little feel for what the language actually does. I desperately want some advance in production values: original music, drawings, or poetry, maybe just a change of scenery. I usually can't make it all the way through a video of Misali saying “Hey look, it has inalienable possession. And over here there's a definite suffix.”

In all fairness, he seems to largely agree with you, at least for things like phonology and morphology, in his most recent "Conlang Review" of High Valyrian. He's basically admitting that he's just reading what "the wiki" says for any given conlang he's reading about and, unfortunately, most "phonology" sections for conlangs he's looked at do largely consist of "these are the sounds", with very little attention given to allophony (in the case of IALs, this is usually covered by "permitted alternatives"). I do think, though, that he maybe skipped over the stress system in High Valyrian, for example, given that that did look fairly in-depth, but, yeah, for the majority of conlangs it does seem to be a case of "here are the sounds, this is what they sound like", which makes the phonology section of his videos relatively... plain? I don't want to say "boring" because some of them do have interesting phoneme inventories, like Na'vi, but by and large that's still all he's working with.

Whether he likes it is obviously subjective, but, yeah, I guess him not going into detail as to why or why not he doesn't like it is a bit of a pitfall. Like, when it comes to a conlang meant for a fictional setting, especially, what makes him think "oo, this is cool", but then again, a lot of fiction-related conlangs do seem to be largely SAE (barring exceptions like Klingon, Dothraki, Na'vi, etc. which arose from the express purpose of "be a bit different for once).

Given his latest video, it does seem like he's aware of various issues with the format, and maybe he might try to mix it up, but, as he pointed out, he doesn't actually make conlangs of his own, and he's basically just reading wikis. I do agree that maybe he should focus more on interesting features, possibly making longer videos to allow himself more room to manoeuvre around what he does and doesn't like, but really only if he focuses more. Maybe more comparison to natlangs might help the format? It's give prospective conlangers somewhere to look to pick out other nice little features. Like, if a conlang he's reviewing has implosives, maybe point to natlangs that have them, and see how the conlang compares to them in terms of phonology. If a conlang employs ergativity, maybe see how it stands up to ergative natlangs. That sort of thing (although I do think that would only really apply to naturalistic non-IAL conlangs, but still...)

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:08 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am I desperately want some advance in production values: original music, drawings, or poetry, maybe just a change of scenery. I usually can't make it all the way through a video of Misali saying “Hey look, it has inalienable possession. And over here there's a definite suffix.”

I'm a bit confused. Isn't that a problem of the conlangers he reviews, due to them not making media, rather than his problem?

No. I am asking him to make something original, not repeat what the creator has done. Hell, a pencil drawing would be a start. Anything beyond just white text copied and pasted onto a black background.

(then again, at least he isn't as annoying as Nativlang...)

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:36 am(then again, at least he isn't as annoying as Nativlang...)

Lol, knocking my man Nativlang.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am For High Valyrian, he complained that the chart (i.e. “the phonology”) didn't have anything really new and innovative in it.

I don't know Misali. But that criticism feels unfair: the phoneme inventory has to fit the existing words, and the language should be manageable for the actors.

Well now I'm interested in your criticisms of NativLang, I've always thought his videos were quite good, although I would like it if he went in to more depth and details.

I too think NativLang videos are at least decent - the few I've watched, that is. As for Jan Misali's conlang reviews, they're just boring to me. I don't know that they're specifically bad. Honestly, I don't know how would an outstanding conlang review video look like.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:36 am

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:08 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am I desperately want some advance in production values: original music, drawings, or poetry, maybe just a change of scenery. I usually can't make it all the way through a video of Misali saying “Hey look, it has inalienable possession. And over here there's a definite suffix.”

I'm a bit confused. Isn't that a problem of the conlangers he reviews, due to them not making media, rather than his problem?

No. I am asking him to make something original, not repeat what the creator has done. Hell, a pencil drawing would be a start. Anything beyond just white text copied and pasted onto a black background.

o.0
So, you're upset that a youtuber who posts video reviews of conlangs, and who jokingly introduces every review with "the show that gets facts wrong about your favorite conlang"....you're upset that its not fancy?

I'm afraid to ask how angry you get at movie or television reviews in the newspaper.

First off, esthetic quality is subjective. Somebody's taste in style/ art is never going to be The Absolute Fact and shouldn't be either. If you dislike his videos, that's your prerogative; and if they prefers conlangs to be outlandish, that is theirs. I see no point in telling you to like the videos, it's not a big deal.

Second, as for his linguistic analyses, I admit I'm not interested in his stuff either, but it's mostly a pop-science-like introduction iirc? I can't expect him to delve deeper when he's not really trying to. If he's being outright inaccurate or misleading, I genuinely see issue tho. IMO I just wish (pop) science/ history YouTubers would cite their sources more often.

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 2:30 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:36 am(then again, at least he isn't as annoying as Nativlang...)

Lol, knocking my man Nativlang.

Yeah, Nativlang is great. As for Jan, his content is okay. But he himself is openly dissatisfied with it, also since conlanging and linguistics was never meant to be a focus for his content. He just wants to make things he likes to make, which is fair.

Nativlang talking to his friends at a Mexican restaurant:

"I don't know what to get. Has anyone tried the [clears throat] KAAY. SAAH. DEEEEEE. YAAH. with fries?"

"What are you saying?"

"I'm sorry?"

"You just made some kind of weird noise, like, four octaves below your normal speaking voice. I couldn't even hear it over the sound of the silverware rattling."

"What? It's a Spanish word. That's how Spanish works."

"Now I can't hear a word you're saying."

"Right. We're speaking English now, so it has to be quiet and weirdly sexual. English is breathy bedroom whispers, all other languages are manic weeaboo gargling. Read a grammar book sometime, geez."

keenir wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 7:21 am So, you're upset...

Swing and a miss!

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am
Like a lot of amateur conlangers, Misali seems to think that “phonology” means “a chart of consonants and vowels, plus maybe some allophony.”

Sorry for the ameteur-ish newbie question, but beyond that, what else does "phonology" mean?

all youtubers are bad hth

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 12:27 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am
Like a lot of amateur conlangers, Misali seems to think that “phonology” means “a chart of consonants and vowels, plus maybe some allophony.”

Sorry for the ameteur-ish newbie question, but beyond that, what else does "phonology" mean?

E.g. syllable structure, phonotactics of roots, affixes, and words; word stress/tone/pitch accent, phrasal stress, prosody, intonation; non-allophonic phonological processes, sandhi, etc.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 12:27 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:31 am
Like a lot of amateur conlangers, Misali seems to think that “phonology” means “a chart of consonants and vowels, plus maybe some allophony.”

Sorry for the ameteur-ish newbie question, but beyond that, what else does "phonology" mean?

what creyeditor said, but also meditate upon Morphological Causative Formation in Shangzhai Horpa (doi:10.1163/2405478X-90000031). here are some simplex-causative pairs:

poɣ 'be dense' > spoɣ
lùn 'get, acquire' > zlùn
rkʰù 'be cold' > skʰù
nrgə̀ 'wait' > zgə̀
tʃʌˠ 'wear (a hat)' > ɬtʃʌˠ
ʒə̀ 'accuse' > ɮdʒə̀
ɣmə 'blow' > ɣzmə
ʁlboɣ 'explode' > ʁzboɣ
fsəm 'close (mouth)' > fɬtsəm
nɣzʌv 'rub (to soften hide)' > ɣɮdzʌv
mtʂʰə̀ 'be diligent' > fɬtʂʰə̀
ʁvrdə̀ˠɣ 'sink' > ʁvzdə̀ˠɣ

as it happens, the causative affix that is applied to all these words is just |s-|, and everything else is (morpho-)phonology, due to the pressures of shangzhai horpa phonotactics. phonology can do many things

also consider any tonal system more complex than like vietnamese

So, I'll say this: Jan Misali's Conlang Critic show has always been pretty bland and 'point out random interesting tidbits from the wiki'-ish -- but that's not really what, at least I, come to his channel for. I come to him for the jokes, the music and the sense of community about the whole thing and Conlang Critic is honestly his worst work imo. I'm hoping with what he brings up in the High Valyrian episode that things will get better for the show -- but it also seemed to me from the start of the show that his experience was with IAL communities and languages, and he judged the basic inventory etc. based on that. Because even outside of the phonotactics or the actual sound of the language in context, an IAL does seem to need sounds that don't need to be learned -- and that's something that can actually be judged in a 'review show' style, I imagine that's why his phonology section is the way it is. Again, he's expressed discontent with the show as it stands now, including how he handles phonologies.

Thank you, Creyeditor and Nortaneous!

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:46 pm all youtubers are bad hth

except the australian guy who posts videos of the cool HO scale dioramas he makes