Zompist Bboard Again

Have any of you on the board incorporated some sort of caste system into your settings? If so, how did you do it?

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I’m thinking about giving the Tim Ar a caste system. The initial divisions I am thinking of:

- Nobility: These guys run the empire, are related to someone who does, operate a sufficiently-sized business empire, or are just really lucky.
- Aristocracy: Landowners originally, this caste expanded into fields such as tax collecting, construction, engineering.
- Hawaladars: The hawaladar caste is tasked with handling monetary transfers on its most basic level, with trust, reputation, and family name being pivotal. Their scope has expanded to cover things such as notary services, banking and finance more generally, legal representation, and negotiation or arbitration.
- Military: Pretty self-explanatory, though the scope is here extended as well (for instance, bounty hunting).
- Priesthood: Largely ceremonial nowadays; back in the day, this was a fundamental division of society in the Tim Ar-O cultural complex. This one also covers medical professions. Educators and counselors are further permissible career choices.
- Scribes: If it involves writing and recordkeeping.
- Merchants: Big business, small business, courier services, logistics, and, for some reason, a lot of computer-related professions.
- Commoners: A lot of everything else falls under this umbrella, particularly trades and agricultural professions.
- Vulgar commoners: Like above, except less prestigious and more “dirty”.
- Untouchables: If you could expect Mike Rowe to film a segment about it, chances are it gets filed in this bin.
- Serfs/slaves: This is something I’ve been debating. I am trying to de-Mary Sue the Tim Ar, but I wonder if this would be too much or too far. Slavery and indentured servitude exist on my conworld (it’s supposed to be a something of a crapsack world).

Movement between castes is difficult, though restrictions on career would have been relaxed quite a bit in the run-up to the time of the story—so someone from basically any caste could join the armed forces (though not as an officer), for instance, and the Scribal and Merchant classes have significant overlap. Choice of profession is, however, still limited by one’s caste.

I feel I should also mention that the Tim Ar have a skin group system. One is considered to be part of both the mother’s and the father’s skin groups at once, and this system is mostly exogamous (a few later additions to this classification scheme allow endogamy, however). I’m not sure if there are other prohibitions due to historical animosity or something.

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I would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?

I haven't delved into those beyond basic systems: citizens/noncitizens, aristocrats/commoners, etcetera. a good thing to consider when making one is how such systems come to be. In india, for example, the caste system was deeply influenced by colonialism, and seems to have started with the coming of the indo-europeans, and the feudal concept of serfdom has to do with something not dissimilar: the substitution of a ruling class by another. maybe there's a thread there, that when you conquer a big realm it's sometimes useful to divide people into little groups in order to keep people in their place. ancient china seems to be a good example of this idea (as is current north korea). the koreans apparently made a caste out of defeated invaders, and the yanks, having decided they needed a subjugated underclass, literally imported one from across the world.

Another consideration, maybe more interesting, is what exactly do you mean by caste: do you mean the systems of jati in precolonial india? a lot of castes systems seem to have independently originated (being found in all continents and amongst disparate peoples), but religious and cultural influence seems to be a pretty good vector for this particular disease: and it seems to me that once you have the idea of organizing people into castes -and perhaps once your population has gotten used to the idea as well- rulers or other social innovators (yes, social innovations can be evil, conservatives are sometimes right i guess) can just come up with new caste systems. so did your guys already lived in a world with castes and came up with this system, or are they descended from the originators of the custom? if so, it's worth it to think about how did this system came about? maybe you can mix and match the mechanics attested in history: you could have them develop their first caste through getting conquered and assimilating their rulers in the role of aristocrats, then those aristocrats came up with the idea of peasants/commoners tied to the land -you know, to give stability to the barley sector, economics 101. then maybe a new group conquers them, and demotes the old aristocracy to a military class -don't let a good officer go to waste. then a conqueror expands the empire and has a great idea, why not -sell- all those prisoners of war? boom, you get slaves, thus promoting your serfs to commoners, and so on and so forth. Maybe scribes are a conquered people, etcetera.

all of this ethnic dimensions to castes can, if one understandably doesn't want the aesthetics of race-castes in one's conworlding, plausibly be handwaved out of promiscuity: sex will happen, and the genes will get mixed much to the dismay of traditionalists after enough time. this takes a while, but caste systems need to be pretty old to be perceived as cultural practices rather than as policy anyway.

The Vedreki are divided into five castes - noble, warrior, farmer, worker and servant in descending of prestige (although farmer and worker are pretty much equal). The caste system is religious in origin and has simply hardened over time; as Torco says you could look at making this religious in origin, although the hardening over time has been entirely due - whatever they might claim - to noble and warrior desire to maintain power over the more populous and more fecund lower castes.

When Gharax created the world the people were split into castes, corresponding to the five circles of heaven each ruled by a viceroy of God, and the five parts of the body of God: the head (noble); arms (warrior); body (worker); legs (farmer) and feet (servant). The worst insult from a Vedreki is that you are without caste and therefore cannot enter heaven. Humans mind, who arrived on the planet some 15,000 years ago, and who entered into an agreement with the Vedreki that the latter could keep their caste system of governance if they accepted the human emperor as suzerain, are equated with warrior caste (can't let them get too important by saying they're noble, although an exception ends up being made for the imperial royal family)

In the original creation of the world the world was also divided into five circles, but the Viceroy of the fifth circle sought to take over the other circles and war broke out. By legend 500 million people died - basically just an unimaginably large vnumber. Gharax intervened to remove magic from all sides and made peace. The circles were abandoned on Azdra and the current geography of the planet was created. They remain in heaven though, and cities used to be built with five quarters one per caste, with the noble quarter being the highest-up and servant caste lowest down. There are five chambers to a temple of Gharax, entered via doors off a slowly climbing ramp – servant caste at the bottom and noble caste at the top). Gharax decreed the various laws governing the relationships between the castes, enforcing them as a neutral and all-powerful arbiter. They are written in the primary religious text – the Word of Gharax – which is held up by the Society of Gharax as the inerrant source of all truth. The society, a secret society, is devoted to the maintenance of social order in accordance with the book and resist all secularist tendencies to treat different Vedreki from different castes as being of the same worth. For the society, the correct order of things is under attack from all sides, and their primary aim is to prevent anyone “acting like the fifth”. To act like the fifth is now to rebel or do something against the natural order of things.

I say a little bit more about caste here
https://www.verduria.org/viewtopic.php?p=15824#p15824

Definitely planning on it, but haven't started to define yet beyond vague concepts. I'll be going back through the posts so far for ideas to steal get inspiration from.

Are you imitating varnas (the four classes) or jatis (the thousands of individual divisions)? They arise and develop differently. All agricultural societies have developed class systems; they were tied to religion much more closely in India. It's usually supposed that varnas came far earlier (They're mentioned in the Vedas, ~ 1800 BCE) though at least one historian believes the opposite.

My initial reaction is that your categories are too narrow for varnas, but way too broad for jatis. "Nobility" and "aristocracy" are usually identical, though perhaps you are thinking of "royals" vs. "estate-owners". I'm not sure why financiers, merchants, and scribes are distinguished. It's hard to believe that the "military" class would be disjoint from the rulers: almost always, the people who run the army are the people who run society.

One trouble with the varnas is that politics refuses to play along. Kings were supposed to be kshatriyas, but non-kshatriyas kept becoming kings. At first the brahmins just grumbled, though some of their attempts to describe an ideal world, like Mani's "Laws", were later mistaken as descriptions of reality. Later on the kings realized that they could pay brahmins to create an appropriate kshatriya genealogy for them.

Jatis have a way of historically migrating up or down the varna system.

As for conquest, the clearest example is northern India conquering the south. The varna system was way simplified— essentially the four became two, just brahmins vs. sudras. Jatis took over everywhere, however. (Note that you don't have to slot people into an existing jati; you can constantly create new ones.)

It sounds like you're extending the system to modern times, and it's worth noting that the jati system is not holding out against money. When a low-jati person can get richer than a brahmin landowner, the system is in trouble.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 am Are you imitating varnas (the four classes) or jatis (the thousands of individual divisions)? They arise and develop differently. All agricultural societies have developed class systems; they were tied to religion much more closely in India. It's usually supposed that varnas came far earlier (They're mentioned in the Vedas, ~ 1800 BCE) though at least one historian believes the opposite.

Let me use this opportunity to ask something I’ve wondered about: to what extent are the varnas actually relevant in Indian society? Certainly, popular overviews of the caste system invariably focus on the varnas: indeed I had no idea jatis even existed until I stumbled across the term a couple of months ago. But a little research seems to imply that the varnas are mostly a theoretical construct, with everyday experience of the caste system revolving in practice around the jatis. Is this correct?

(Yes, I know I could just read your ICK, but I haven’t even gotten around to buying it yet…)

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:50 am Let me use this opportunity to ask something I’ve wondered about: to what extent are the varnas actually relevant in Indian society? Certainly, popular overviews of the caste system invariably focus on the varnas: indeed I had no idea jatis even existed until I stumbled across the term a couple of months ago. But a little research seems to imply that the varnas are mostly a theoretical construct, with everyday experience of the caste system revolving in practice around the jatis. Is this correct?

My understanding is that varna comes down to anti-sudra and anti-Dalit prejudice; note that that means the majority of the population. Modern India legally prohibits "casteism", but that doesn't mean it's gone.

I don't think it's legally possible any more to limit jatis to a profession... but of course you have founder effects. A huge impact of jatis is on marriage, as you are supposed to marry within your jati.

Hopefully Vijay can supply more information on how things actually work today.

(Yes, I know I could just read your ICK, but I haven’t even gotten around to buying it yet…)

Easily rectified!

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:18 am A huge impact of jatis is on marriage, as you are supposed to marry within your jati.

From having interacted with Indians a lot due to previous work (& resulting friendships) this mostly squares with my experience. I've heard many Indians express optimism that castes are a thing of the past and that people are now free to marry between castes. However, they still get pressure from parents to stay in-caste for marriage, and some have also shown some distaste for particular castes. To me, it seems like many like the idea of a fully post-caste society, but old habits die hard.

I am planning on having a caste-like system that is basically blacksmiths vs. two or three other classes, somewhere in my conworld.

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone!

Torco wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:59 amImaybe there's a thread there, that when you conquer a big realm it's sometimes useful to divide people into little groups in order to keep people in their place. ancient china seems to be a good example of this idea (as is current north korea). the koreans apparently made a caste out of defeated invaders, and the yanks, having decided they needed a subjugated underclass, literally imported one from across the world.

evmdbm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:40 amThe caste system is religious in origin and has simply hardened over time; as Torco says you could look at making this religious in origin, although the hardening over time has been entirely due - whatever they might claim - to noble and warrior desire to maintain power over the more populous and more fecund lower castes.

Good points, and useful. My current conception is that the caste system is in crisis at the time of the setting: The current dynasty was the result of a populist revolt, but they had to make concessions to the higher castes and, in any case, caste is supposed to have been a longstanding tradition among the Tim Ar.

Torco wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:59 amso did your guys already lived in a world with castes and came up with this system, or are they descended from the originators of the custom?

They're descended from the originators. I'm debating whether I want to confine it to the Tim Ar themselves or to make it a more general feature of the Tim Ar-O cultural complex.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 amAre you imitating varnas (the four classes) or jatis (the thousands of individual divisions)?

Yes. Originally I was going for something in-between, but I have had some Ideas of late…

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 amMy initial reaction is that your categories are too narrow for varnas, but way too broad for jatis. "Nobility" and "aristocracy" are usually identical, though perhaps you are thinking of "royals" vs. "estate-owners".

That's pretty much spot-on.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 amI'm not sure why financiers, merchants, and scribes are distinguished.

[. . .]

It's hard to believe that the "military" class would be disjoint from the rulers: almost always, the people who run the army are the people who run society.

To the first part, here was my internal reasoning—at their core, when the caste system started:
- The hawaladars were used to facilitate the movement of money via a hawala-like system, but on a more abstract level, they facilitate trust.
- The scribes were used to facilitate recordkeeping.
- The merchant class was used to facilitate trade.
This scheme was then extended. Hawaladars stake their entire reputation on trust, fair dealing, and confidentiality, so they expanded into careers tied to these qualities; scribes do a lot of clerical stuff and writing; merchants moved into the business-support space. The key difference, I think, between hawaladars and merchants is that hawaladars (at their core) move money while merchants move product.

To your second point, you're right. I hadn't thought that through.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 amJatis have a way of historically migrating up or down the varna system.

[. . .]

(Note that you don't have to slot people into an existing jati; you can constantly create new ones.)

OK, that's good to know!

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 amIt sounds like you're extending the system to modern times, and it's worth noting that the jati system is not holding out against money. When a low-jati person can get richer than a brahmin landowner, the system is in trouble.

That is my intention. I think it'd be interesting to explore castes and personal roles in-story.

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As it turns out…I have a few varna-like terms already defined for the Tim Ar. In descending order of prestige:

- Hia: Any culture descended from the PTO cultural complex (includes the Tim Ar as primus inter pares, as you might expect)
- Támrek: The Täptäg
- Kán: Those of Caber descent
- Uiráha: A descriptor for certain peoples in the Burning Mountains (< CK wit'a-ha 'mountain people')
- Kia: Everyone else except Uikúa individuals (q.v.)
- Uikúa: Various groups, many of which were not related, that battled the Tim Ar at various points

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So, restructuring things a bit…again, in decreasing order of prestige, how's this for a jati-like inventory? Is it at least a start? What other dimensions could I add?

- Nobility: Includes intelligence personnel, high-level administrators, and military officers
- Landed Gentry: Landowners
- Aristocracy: Gigabusiness and old money
- Hawaladars: Engaged in money transmission and numerous professions involving trust, confidentiality, and/or money
- Merchants: Big business, small business, couriers, logistics, and, inexplicably, a lot of IT-related stuff
- Scribes: Recordkeepers, historians, documentarians, researchers, journalists, people who preserve information
- Academicians: Scientists, inventors, engineers, teachers, &c.
- Mendicants: Pharmacists, general practitioners (basically, anything medical that doesn't involve blood), but also people who deal with food/beverages
- Mercenaries: Middle-rank military personnel, security workers, legal professionals, weaponsmiths, weapons dealers, armorers
- Commoners: Tradesmen and skilled workers of various types, farmers or farm administrators, first responders/emergency personnel, some religious occupations
- Vulgar Commoners: Musicians, entertainers, professional athletes, artists, casino workers, menial laborers, unskilled workers, some religious occupations
- Chattel: Chattel slaves, bonded laborers, indentured servants, and the like
- Untouchables: Basically, if the job description deals with blood, excrement, saliva, bodily discharge, or dead bodies/remains; also includes some high-risk or dangerous jobs, e.g. involving possible exposure to radiation or carcinogens

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The untouchables involve a lot of the jobs you'd think—butchers, gravediggers, sanitation workers, undertakers, executioners, people who deal with night soil, people who handle manure, and so on. There's also a number that might be surprising: Most doctors, surgeons, and dentists are considered untouchables, for instance, and not just phlebotomists; pest control workers; certain cosmetic workers (having to deal with the hair and nails); and lots of enlisted/lower-rank military roles, particularly infantry. Specialized roles—e.g. pilot, navigator, mess officer—are reserved for the higher castes.

It should be noted that there is a little bit of plasticity in the scheme; the infantry example is really good to show this. As long as an infantryman is within that role, he is considered to be untouchable. If he was originally from a different caste and happened to enlist, his untouchable status lasts only as long as he is within a killing role in the military, and when his service is completed or he is promoted out of the infantry, he reverts back to his original caste status. Distinguished conduct can occasionally lead to increases in caste, particularly if someone from a low caste is promoted to officer status.

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There are restrictions on what varnas can belong to which jatis.

- Hia can be members of any jati except for chattel.
- Támrek can be members of any jati except those of the nobility, landed gentry, and chattel.
- Kán can be members of the merchant, scribe, academician, mendicant, commoner, vulgar commoner, or untouchable jatis.
- Uiráha can be members of the scribe, academician, mendicant, commoner, vulgar commoner, or untouchable jatis.
- Kia can be members of the commoner, vulgar commoner, or untouchable jatis.
- Uikúa can be, at best, vulgar commoners.

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I have to come up with a lot of the in-system vocabulary for this. Aside from the prospective varna names, I do have one for a possible jati: Húgakua (< CK p'uǧakhu-a 'sweat people'), the chattel caste.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 amI would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?

In India, all foreigners are effectively shoehorned into existing categories except white people, who are commonly perceived to be incapable of doing anything bad and thus on a plane of existence even higher than the highest in the caste system. (This has changed somewhat and become a bit complicated with the legal erosion of the caste system, but during the colonial period, when white people committed crimes, typically, no one would even consider punishing them for it. This mentality hasn't really disappeared. My dad sometimes half-jokes that Jews are the "elder brother" who is on an even higher plane of existence than either Indians or white people, and Chinese "the real elder brother" on a still higher plane of existence).

Nevertheless, the way they are shoehorned varies a lot depending on which specific group is being shoehorned, where, when, and under what set of circumstances. For example, in Kerala, Jews, Christians, and Muslims were all effectively treated as Vaishyas (merchants, businessmen, grocers, traders, farmers, etc.) would be treated elsewhere in India, eliminating the need for a Vaishya caste altogether. However, many lower-caste people have converted to Christianity and Islam by now, so there are high-caste Christians and low-caste Christians, and the high-caste Christians (very much including my family) discriminate (to put it really lightly...) against the low-caste Christians to this day just like high-caste Hindus or people of any other religion discriminate against their low-caste counterparts.

Torco wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:59 amIn india, for example, the caste system was deeply influenced by colonialism, and seems to have started with the coming of the indo-europeans

It apparently predates this.

and the feudal concept of serfdom has to do with something not dissimilar: the substitution of a ruling class by another.

This has happened probably almost all over India, and still happens in some parts of India, on the basis of caste. Apparently, the relatively recent split of Telangana from Andhra Pradesh in South India has a lot to do with this.

it seems to me that once you have the idea of organizing people into castes -and perhaps once your population has gotten used to the idea as well- rulers or other social innovators (yes, social innovations can be evil, conservatives are sometimes right i guess) can just come up with new caste systems.

Yeah, pretty much.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 amMy initial reaction is that your categories are too narrow for varnas, but way too broad for jatis.

Gotras?

Mani's "Laws"

Manusmrti?

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:50 amLet me use this opportunity to ask something I’ve wondered about: to what extent are the varnas actually relevant in Indian society?

Oh, God(!). It is a HUGE deal in Indian society, and it is by no means limited to Hinduism. It extends to virtually everyone regardless of religious background. Foreigners (or Dalits, for that matter) may not technically be included in the caste system, but the caste system has practical consequences for how they are treated as well. Speakers of minority languages a.k.a. "tribal people" are typically treated as low-caste. Black people are as well, although historically, one of them was a nobleman and confidant of the Delhi Sultanate's only female ruler, and part of Maharashtra was ruled by people of Ethiopian descent from the 15th century through the colonial period until shortly after independence. [EDIT: I'm sorry, I'm not sure why the formatting for that sentence is so bad]. EDIT2: Black people were also frequently hired as mercenaries on both sides in a war.

Lots of Indians, including probably the vast majority of Indian immigrants in other countries, deny that caste discrimination still exists. They are either lying or conveniently not paying attention because they are - like me - in the higher echelons of the caste hierarchy. Caste discrimination is illegal by law in India, but this is India. The law, in the vast majority of cases, means nothing. Pay the cops enough, and they will start a caste war for you. Expose the discrimination enough to implicate the government, and the government itself will imprison you no matter how much international notoriety you have.

People of different jatis actively discriminate against one another. Dalits of one jati discriminate against those of a lower jati in much the same way that higher-caste people discriminate against them.

While many Dalits have managed to overcome the caste system and achieve a better life for themselves and often for many others, including higher-caste people, probably most lower-caste people are forced into the same jobs they've always had. The same low-caste jatis as always still clean the sewers even if they have multiple university degrees (see especially 13:50-19:23), sweep the streets, work as tenant farmers, are forced into prostitution at the hands of temple priests (or perhaps even worse - bottling Indian pickles by day and prostitution at night), etc. Bakkhos still pull (yes pull) rickshaws and sell steel utensils on the roadside.

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:37 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 amI would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?

In India, all foreigners are effectively shoehorned into existing categories except white people, who are commonly perceived to be incapable of doing anything bad and thus on a plane of existence even higher than the highest in the caste system.

I'm a little surprised at this... I'd heard that during the Raj, the brahmins definitely considered the British below them. One Brit noted that brahmins would make sure to see him early in the morning-- so they had time to cleanse themselves afterward.

(But "outside the system" can be interpreted negatively or positively!)

Mani's "Laws"

Manusmrti?

Exactly-- e.g. my copy is called The Law Code of Manu. The Arthashastra is way more interesting IMHO.

Man, this thread sent me down a rabbit hole about traditional finance around that whole area that's been quite enlightening. I had been munching on ideas about how would an economy work amongst ancient peoples, maybe even pre-money, and this really suggests things.

The thing with OP's system is that it has too few categories to be very indian, I think: Vijay can correct me but as far as I understand it's not that orderly... I mean, caste sounds kind like the conworlding equivalent of kitchen sink langs, right? like the Divine Conworlder of Earth had too much to drink one night and said "you know what ? I'm gonna make these guys funky af. I'm gonna say they have like ten thousand social classes, you know? customary occupational groups of people complete with subcultures and a complex network of grudges amongst them: there's a class for fruit salesmen, another for cleaners... oh, i know, i know, one for really gross jobs. oh, and one for like carpenters: except for the guys who build houses, those are a different sort of carpenter. oh, oh, and the house guys are really poor and "low caste" or whatever because once a bazillion years ago the furniture carpenters beat them in a war or something. yeah, man, this is so cool". I mean, I'm sorry if this is like offensive for me to say and I'm being ignorant (i preemtively admit I'm pretty ignorant about this whole thing) but wikipedia has like 200 different castes lists, and these are some:

one is, I quote, traditionally transporters, land holdiners and merchants; they are now mostly agriculturists. (implying, of course, most farmers are not that caste)
one became dalit after converting to buddhism en masse?
one is just... rich, apparently? their caste occupation is 'business and being influential and prosperous'. so, in other words, rich people.
there's one for boatmen of northern india, which means the boatmen of southern india presumable all belong to some different caste or castes.
one which used to be saltpeter traders but these days mostly farm?
one's for manufacturers of lime? oh my god these can't get more specific than that.
one's of rickshaw drivers and gardeners?
wait... there's one for florists? for real?

Again, Vijay please correct me but a cursory reading of the wikipedia list of castes really gives me the vibe that these are sort of... you know, reeeeally really big extended family/business clans, probably originated in the consistent use of marriage alliances to promote or cement business partnerships. Like, you know, I'm a florist, you grow petunias, please give me these petunias, i will pay you after I sell them. please please trust me, i marry your daughter. yes, yes, the old one that's divorced, i'll be good to her too, i promise, now about those petunias. And after enough generations everyone knows that everyone in the flower business is married to each other somehow. fathers expecting their kids to continue to participate in this industry-business community-family thing and boom, you get a caste system. a lot more organic, with weird hierarchies within hierarchies and "the florists think they're better than us honeymakers, but look! their daughters marry peasants from the south! their sons are all becoming muslims! they are beneath us indeed, the other clans will see!", you know, super deep and complex and quite honestly wacky... different from this orderly system of estates general, like 'nobles, clerics, accountants, yeomen and peasants, m'lord'. Like, I have given a couple of my conpeople structures such as this, though I tend to think about them as 'clans'. did I accidentally give my people caste?

in unrelated news, in chile when you rent an apartment you have to get an 'aval', which pays if you don't, and the word apparently comes from Hawala.

That sounds about right. There are innumerable jatis. And then on top of that you also have gotras and the varnas don't work the same way everywhere and What About Foreigners and...and...

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 am

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:37 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 amI would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?

In India, all foreigners are effectively shoehorned into existing categories except white people, who are commonly perceived to be incapable of doing anything bad and thus on a plane of existence even higher than the highest in the caste system.

I'm a little surprised at this... I'd heard that during the Raj, the brahmins definitely considered the British below them. One Brit noted that brahmins would make sure to see him early in the morning-- so they had time to cleanse themselves afterward.

I'm often inclined to question statements like this concerning India overall ("the brahmins" - which brahmins? All brahmins? Throughout India? Or...?), though that doesn't mean they're wrong. And I could be wrong as well, but I'm having trouble thinking of foreigners who aren't shoehorned into such categories.

If it's of any interest at all, I'm specifically reminded of a certain story from a women's magazine in Malayalam (also available in Hindi. I used to be fascinated by this magazine because it seemed to have a lot of valuable content at least at first; for example, the first issue I started to read had an article about vanilla cultivation, and my dad said, "This is going to be the next big cash crop in Kerala soon." Sure enough, we went to Kerala, and guess what people were growing everywhere and what the one publication (just a pamphlet) I found in town in Malayalam that was not an evangelical Christian book was about? Yes of course I said all that just to explain why I was reading a women's magazine in the first place. Should I delete it oh fuck it I already wrote it out anyway). Two British men during the colonial period, somewhere in what is now Kerala, went to a pub. They got drunk and damaged much of it. The next day, when they'd sobered up, they felt ashamed of what they did and tried to find a lawyer who would represent them in court. Everyone they approached was baffled by their request because no one would consider prosecuting them in the first place; why on Earth would they need to waste money on a lawyer? Finally, one lawyer agreed. In court, he asked the pub owner whether there were any bottles of German alcohol in his establishment. The pub owner said yes. Then the lawyer said, "Ah, you see, Britain is at war with Germany at the moment. It's only reasonable that they got so outraged upon seeing bottles of German alcohol at the pub!" and they were let go. In return for his services, the two Brits gave him their estate. His family still lives there to this day.

Mani's "Laws"

Manusmrti?

Exactly-- e.g. my copy is called The Law Code of Manu. The Arthashastra is way more interesting IMHO.

I wasn't sure whether I interpreted correctly who "Mani" was.
EDIT: Grrr quoting function why do I keep deleting half of you and making you work improperly

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:37 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:50 amLet me use this opportunity to ask something I’ve wondered about: to what extent are the varnas actually relevant in Indian society?

Oh, God(!). It is a HUGE deal in Indian society, and it is by no means limited to Hinduism.

Thanks for the explanation. (I suppose this is just further proof that people will always find ways to hate each other, as if any were needed…)

Follow-up question: for how long has this sort of discrimination been around for, and how has it changed over the years? I’ve heard that the varnas only became really important after the British came in and formalised everything in terms of them, but I don’t know how true that is.

Expose the discrimination enough to implicate the government, and the government itself will imprison you no matter how much international notoriety you have.

Are you sure you have the right link here? I can’t find anything about caste in that article.

Torco wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:55 am Again, Vijay please correct me but a cursory reading of the wikipedia list of castes really gives me the vibe that these are sort of... you know, reeeeally really big extended family/business clans, probably originated in the consistent use of marriage alliances to promote or cement business partnerships. Like, you know, I'm a florist, you grow petunias, please give me these petunias, i will pay you after I sell them. please please trust me, i marry your daughter. yes, yes, the old one that's divorced, i'll be good to her too, i promise, now about those petunias. And after enough generations everyone knows that everyone in the flower business is married to each other somehow. fathers expecting their kids to continue to participate in this industry-business community-family thing and boom, you get a caste system. a lot more organic, with weird hierarchies within hierarchies and "the florists think they're better than us honeymakers, but look! their daughters marry peasants from the south! their sons are all becoming muslims! they are beneath us indeed, the other clans will see!", you know, super deep and complex and quite honestly wacky... different from this orderly system of estates general, like 'nobles, clerics, accountants, yeomen and peasants, m'lord'. Like, I have given a couple of my conpeople structures such as this, though I tend to think about them as 'clans'. did I accidentally give my people caste?

This is pretty much my understanding of the system as well. (Not that I understand much of it at all, mind you.) The impression I get is that jatis are basically big extended families with a hereditary occupation.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:07 amI suppose this is just further proof that people will always find ways to hate each other, as if any were needed…

Yes. It is especially stupid at this point. It is a) illegal and b) ......how is this helping us anyway? Higher-caste people are making a big fuss about oh noez the lower-caste people finally have access to education and we don't a lot of us are poor therefore it's all their fault low-caste people should be put in their place. Meanwhile, affirmative action in favor of low-caste people has been around for decades and has yielded very positive results for everyone regardless of caste.

Follow-up question: for how long has this sort of discrimination been around for

Possibly since at least the Indus Valley Civilization

and how has it changed over the years?

Well, probably in a lot of ways. People have been awarded honorary caste status. There are debates over who actually belongs to which caste. Brahmins in some parts of India (well, Kerala, anyway) have become a laughing-stock due to financial mismanagement. Nambudiris (Malayalee Brahmins) and Nairs (Malayalee sort-of-Kshatriyas-except-they-include-some-Shudras-too-maybe-it's-debatable-and-complicated) from what I understand have a tradition of raping each other (Nambudiri men often raped Nair women. Meanwhile, the oldest children in a Nair family are traditionally expected to marry their cross-cousins, but once they run out of cousins to marry, it doesn't really matter who they marry, so often, they rape Nambudiri women in revenge. All of this was and largely continues to be pretty standard social practice). The situation of low-caste people seems to have steadily deteriorated in the South-North border region (Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Karnataka, and Maharashtra, plus maybe Odisha and Madhya Pradesh).

I’ve heard that the varnas only became really important after the British came in and formalised everything in terms of them, but I don’t know how true that is.

I don't know about that, but it wasn't until the British came in that Dalits started pointing out that they were useless to the whole country since they had done nothing to end caste discrimination. Both caste discrimination and literature criticizing it go back thousands of years (the Mahabharata pretty explicitly says casteism is bunk).

Are you sure you have the right link here? I can’t find anything about caste in that article.

Yes. Sorry, I don't know of a link that specifically details what exactly happened, so I'll try to explain.

India has a group of communist terrorists called Naxalites. Communists in India, much like elsewhere, have a reputation for upholding the underdog. Binayak Sen was a doctor who set up the only clinic in a part of the state of Chattisgarh. In Chattisgarh, the state government's response to any perceived or actual threat of Naxalite activity is an organization called Salwa Judoom, loosely made up of all kinds of people to raze random villages (belonging to tribal people who are on the margins of Indian society and thus are unable to defend themselves from such attacks). Sen reported on this. He also happened to visit a Naxalite in prison. The Chhattisgarhi government exploited this as an opportunity to frame Sen as a Naxalite so he couldn't report on Salwa Judoom and its crimes. Lots of people around the world have been appealing to the Indian government for his release. He is still in prison.

The impression I get is that jatis are basically big extended families with a hereditary occupation.

Big extended families with a hereditary occupation is pretty much how Indian society has always worked. My family doesn't really have a hereditary occupation anymore, but we have probably unknowingly married our own relatives several times over by now because cousin marriage was historically so common that it now seems pretty much inevitable without marrying outside the community (which oh no big scandal).

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:36 am

I’ve heard that the varnas only became really important after the British came in and formalised everything in terms of them, but I don’t know how true that is.

I don't know about that, but it wasn't until the British came in that Dalits started pointing out that they were useless to the whole country since they had done nothing to end caste discrimination. Both caste discrimination and literature criticizing it go back thousands of years (the Mahabharata pretty explicitly says casteism is bunk).

I’m talking about statements like this:

Wikipedia wrote: From 1901 onwards, for the purposes of the Decennial Census, the British classified all Jātis into one or the other of the Varna categories as described in ancient texts. … Scholars believe that the Varnas system was never truly operational in society and there is no evidence of it ever being a reality in Indian history. The practical division of the society had always been in terms of Jatis (birth groups), which are not based on any specific religious principle, but could vary from ethnic origins to occupations to geographic areas. … Starting with the British colonial Census of 1901 led by Herbert Hope Risley, all the jātis were grouped under the theoretical varnas categories. According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it."

Which don’t state outright but heavily imply that the modern-day varna system was pretty much put in place by the British. I’d be interested to know about the truth of such statements.

Are you sure you have the right link here? I can’t find anything about caste in that article.

Yes. Sorry, I don't know of a link that specifically details what exactly happened, so I'll try to explain.

India has a group of communist terrorists called Naxalites. Communists in India, much like elsewhere, have a reputation for upholding the underdog. Binayak Sen was a doctor who set up the only clinic in a part of the state of Chattisgarh. In Chattisgarh, the state government's response to any perceived or actual threat of Naxalite activity is an organization called Salwa Judoom, loosely made up of all kinds of people to raze random villages (belonging to tribal people who are on the margins of Indian society and thus are unable to defend themselves from such attacks). Sen reported on this. He also happened to visit a Naxalite in prison. The Chhattisgarhi government exploited this as an opportunity to frame Sen as a Naxalite so he couldn't report on Salwa Judoom and its crimes. Lots of people around the world have been appealing to the Indian government for his release. He is still in prison.

Ah, OK.

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:58 am I wasn't sure whether I interpreted correctly who "Mani" was.

Er, Manu of course. The sad thing is that I looked at the book and didn't notice my typo.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:56 am Which don’t state outright but heavily imply that the modern-day varna system was pretty much put in place by the British. I’d be interested to know about the truth of such statements.

Piketty devotes a chapter to this in Capital and Ideology. IIRC, his thesis is that the British found the Varna system incredibly convenient; they coopted it, enforced it, and to a large extent rigidified it. Varna preexisted the British Raj but it was more of a theoretical thing; besides it wasn't consistent across all of India and there was a lot of local variation that the Brits completely ignored.

(I hope I didn't mangle Piketty's thesis too much.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:39 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:56 am Which don’t state outright but heavily imply that the modern-day varna system was pretty much put in place by the British. I’d be interested to know about the truth of such statements.

Piketty devotes a chapter to this in Capital and Ideology. IIRC, his thesis is that the British found the Varna system incredibly convenient; they coopted it, enforced it, and to a large extent rigidified it. Varna preexisted the British Raj but it was more of a theoretical thing; besides it wasn't consistent across all of India and there was a lot of local variation that the Brits completely ignored.

Yeah, that’s basically my understanding of varna. What I’m interested in is whether this is true or not.