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Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:10 am
by Nachtswalbe
In China and the Arab world, there is a de facto diglossia between the "standard" language and mutually unintelligible topolects.
The governments of these areas prefer the Standard language and in China's case, promote it at the expense of topolects.
To what extent is there a "high culture" in the topolects (modern literature, music - not just folk songs or opera that happen to use the topolect), and are there cases where both a topolect and a "standard" language are placed on an officially equal footing?
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:13 am
by Otto Kretschmer
In China Standard Mandarin is spoken by most young people. Almost all Chinese media is in Mandarin
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:26 am
by Creyeditor
IIUC, maybe Egyptian Arabic is what you are looking for?
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:51 am
by Nachtswalbe
Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:26 am
IIUC, maybe Egyptian Arabic is what you are looking for?
Probably although since I'm not an Arabophone I don't know how much modern culture is produced in it
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:59 pm
by Moose-tache
Nachtswalbe wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:51 am
Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:26 am
IIUC, maybe Egyptian Arabic is what you are looking for?
Probably although since I'm not an Arabophone I don't know how much modern culture is produced in it
Egypt is the TV capital of the Arab world. Everyone from Morocco to Muscat can probably name a half-dozen Egyptian soap operas. I couldn't tell you what ratio of standard to non-standard dialect they use, but I'm sure some Egyptian Arabic is heavily featured in at least some of their TV shows.
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:42 pm
by Man in Space
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:59 pm
Nachtswalbe wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:51 am
Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:26 am
IIUC, maybe Egyptian Arabic is what you are looking for?
Probably although since I'm not an Arabophone I don't know how much modern culture is produced in it
Egypt is the TV capital of the Arab world. Everyone from Morocco to Muscat can probably name a half-dozen Egyptian soap operas. I couldn't tell you what ratio of standard to non-standard dialect they use, but I'm sure some Egyptian Arabic is heavily featured in at least some of their TV shows.
Thanks to my college experience I can confirm that much non-state, non-press media is in the vernacular.
Al-Bāb fī-l-Bāb (described to me as the Egyptian
Everybody Loves Raymond), for instance.
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:10 pm
by zompist
Nachtswalbe wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:10 am
The governments of these areas prefer the Standard language and in China's case, promote it at the expense of topolects.
To what extent is there a "high culture" in the topolects (
modern literature, music - not just folk songs or opera that happen to use the topolect), and are there cases where both a topolect and a "standard" language are placed on an officially equal footing?
The best example might be Hong Kong, where Cantonese is the language of daily life, education, and culture, including the film industry, but Mandarin is the national language and also the everyday language of a substantial minority.
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:29 am
by vegfarandi
Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:13 am
In China Standard Mandarin is spoken by most young people. Almost all Chinese media is in Mandarin
My friend, a highly educated millennial from Chengdu, says he speaks Mandarin but from what I've been able to gather, he really speaks Sichuanese with Mandarin vocabulary. Or Mandarin with a Sichuanese pronunciation. Either way, it's quite different and I started to realize it because I'd ask him questions about Chinese (thinking Mandarin) and he'd give me answers that contradicted my understanding. Slowly, I realized it's because he's thinking in Sichuanese. Phonology-wise, Sichuanese doesn't distinguish the retroflex sibilants from the palatal ones and doesn't distinguish /l/ and /n/, it has /v/ and /z/ phonemes and a lot less erhua. And a lot of points of grammar are also pretty different. So I believe that Mandarin is growing at the expense of local languages/dialects, but I think the extent of Mandarinization is exaggerated.
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:49 am
by Travis B.
vegfarandi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:29 am
Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:13 am
In China Standard Mandarin is spoken by most young people. Almost all Chinese media is in Mandarin
My friend, a highly educated millennial from Chengdu, says he speaks Mandarin but from what I've been able to gather, he really speaks Sichuanese with Mandarin vocabulary. Or Mandarin with a Sichuanese pronunciation. Either way, it's quite different and I started to realize it because I'd ask him questions about Chinese (thinking Mandarin) and he'd give me answers that contradicted my understanding. Slowly, I realized it's because he's thinking in Sichuanese. Phonology-wise, Sichuanese doesn't distinguish the retroflex sibilants from the palatal ones and doesn't distinguish /l/ and /n/, it has /v/ and /z/ phonemes and a lot less erhua. And a lot of points of grammar are also pretty different. So I believe that Mandarin is growing at the expense of local languages/dialects, but I think the extent of Mandarinization is exaggerated.
Isn't Sichuanese a dialect of Mandarin?
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:58 am
by vegfarandi
Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:49 am
Isn't Sichuanese a dialect of Mandarin?
Depends on who you ask.
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:12 am
by Linguoboy
vegfarandi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:58 am
Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:49 am
Isn't Sichuanese a dialect of Mandarin?
Depends on who you ask.
Not to mention which definition of "Mandarin" you're using.
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:24 am
by Travis B.
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:12 am
vegfarandi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:58 am
Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:49 am
Isn't Sichuanese a dialect of Mandarin?
Depends on who you ask.
Not to mention which definition of "Mandarin" you're using.
Is this like whether one categorizes Scots as being a dialect of English or a separate Anglic language?
Re: Topolects and "Standard" Language
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:43 pm
by Linguoboy
Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:24 amIs this like whether one categorizes Scots as being a dialect of English or a separate Anglic language?
In the sense that all questions of dialect affiliations have certain similarities.
"Mandarin" translates a range of Chinese terms, including 官話, 北方話, and 普通話. Recently I've seen more use of "Standard Mandarin" or "Standard Chinese" to refer specifically to the official standard (variously called Pǔtōnghuà, Guóyǔ, Huáyǔ, or Hànyǔ depending on what country you happen to be in) and "Northern Chinese" for the larger dialect grouping. Whether "Northern Chinese" includes "Southwest Chinese" (the dialect grouping of which Sichuanese is a part) or whether these are better viewed as distinct sublanguages is a fraught question and one of more interest to specialists than the average Mandarin-speaker.