English questions

[Starbeam]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

hoof is /ʊ/, roof is /u/. both of them have /u/ in the plural form, but hoof's plural is hooves while roof's plural is roofs
bath and path are both /þ/, but the plurals can sometimes be /ð/ if i'm not paying attention to my speech

[Travis B.]

bath and path are both /þ/, but the plurals can sometimes be /ð/ if i'm not paying attention to my speech

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

[Richard W]

As Anteallach's post for these words, except that I do have the TRAP/B split and so paths and baths end in /ðz/ (or somethinɡ similar). However, I often remember to spell the plural as roofs and not rooves. Perhaps I should change my pronunciation of the plural to protect my state pension.

[Richard W]

bath and path are both /þ/, but the plurals can sometimes be /ð/ if i'm not paying attention to my speech

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

What prescription can we find for these plurals? From my youth I only remember a rule reflected in the spelling, and I've wondered if plurals in /ðz/ result from an orthoɡraphically conditioned change back from /f/ and /v/ to /θ/ and /ð/. Wells has written of this realisation in /ðz/ as though it were a recent change. now approaching completion in SSBE.

[Travis B.]

Okay... from testing my pronunciation a bit more, if I have /ʊ/ in roofs I tend to have /f/ but if I have /u/ in roofs I tend to have /v/...

Edit: but /v/ seems okay too with /ʊ/...

[Travis B.]

bath and path are both /þ/, but the plurals can sometimes be /ð/ if i'm not paying attention to my speech

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

What prescription can we find for these plurals? From my youth I only remember a rule reflected in the spelling, and I've wondered if plurals in /ðz/ result from an orthoɡraphically conditioned change back from /f/ and /v/ to /θ/ and /ð/. Wells has written of this realisation in /ðz/ as though it were a recent change. now approaching completion in SSBE.

It would be interesting if this were happening in parallel in both NAE and EngE, because at least here most people have little real contact with EngE (e.g. I only started watching British TV as an adult; as a kid I thought of Great Britain as a country with a queen that the US split off from years ago which happens to largely speak the same language as us, and little more).

[Glenn]

[Note: I began writing this post before some of the responses above were posted.]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

This question caused me to stop and think about how I pronounce hoof and roof. My conclusion is that there is some free variation involved, but that I treat each of the two words quite differently (and the singulars different from the plurals).
In the case of hoof, when pronounced as an independent word (“the right hoof”), there is some free variation, but my default pronunciation is generally /U/. In terms of set phrases containing hoof, “hoof it” and “hoof-and-mouth disease” always have /U/, while “on the hoof” usually has /u/ instead. In the plural, by contrast, I have /u/ for the vowel, and /v/ for the consonant (/hu:vz/ hooves).

By contrast, with roof, I almost always have /u/, both in the singular and the plural, and in the plural, I definitely seem to have /f/ rather than /v/ (/rufs/ roofs); roofs and hooves are quite distinct from each other, both in consonant voicing and vowel length (short for roofs, long for hooves).

(As the above implies, I suspect that the spelling has a considerable impact; I have noticed that my personal idiolect of GenAm seems to be relatively conservative, and I may be prone to spelling pronunciations).

With regard to baths and paths: once again, there appears to be some variation, but my default seems to be /D/ for both.

[jcb]

[Note: I began writing this post before some of the responses above were posted.]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

This question caused me to stop and think about how I pronounce hoof and roof. My conclusion is that there is some free variation involved, but that I treat each of the two words quite differently (and the singulars different from the plurals).
In the case of hoof, when pronounced as an independent word (“the right hoof”), there is some free variation, but my default pronunciation is generally /U/. In terms of set phrases containing hoof, “hoof it” and “hoof-and-mouth disease” always have /U/, while “on the hoof” usually has /u/ instead. In the plural, by contrast, I have /u/ for the vowel, and /v/ for the consonant (/hu:vz/ hooves).

By contrast, with roof, I almost always have /u/, both in the singular and the plural, and in the plural, I definitely seem to have /f/ rather than /v/ (/rufs/ roofs); roofs and hooves are quite distinct from each other, both in consonant voicing and vowel length (short for roofs, long for hooves).

(As the above implies, I suspect that the spelling has a considerable impact; I have noticed that my personal idiolect of GenAm seems to be relatively conservative, and I may be prone to spelling pronunciations).

With regard to baths and paths: once again, there appears to be some variation, but my default seems to be /D/ for both.

I didn't realize that there would be people that pronounce "hoof" and "roof" with different vowels and/or consonants.

Your distinction reminds me of how I pronounce "route". Normally, I have /{w/ (MOUTH), but in a proper noun like "Route 66" (the movie), I have /u/ (GOOSE).

[Starbeam]

That's basically the same way I pronounce "route". As a title it's /ru:t/, as a word it's /raut/. I once saw somebody mispronounce 'router' as /ru:tr/ and it never occurred to me that was possible.

[Starbeam]

bath and path are both /þ/, but the plurals can sometimes be /ð/ if i'm not paying attention to my speech

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

What's really common in reckless speech is pronouncing 'baths' almost like "baz" and 'path' like "pafs". But i'm usually able to make a clear distinction

[Travis B.]

I similarly pronounce route with MOUTH normally but with GOOSE when it is part of the name of a highway. Router always has MOUTH for me, and I would not even recognize it as the same word if someone pronounced it with GOOSE.

[Travis B.]

bath and path are both /þ/, but the plurals can sometimes be /ð/ if i'm not paying attention to my speech

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

What's really common in reckless speech is pronouncing 'baths' almost like "baz" and 'path' like "pafs". But i'm usually able to make a clear distinction

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind my asking, where are you from? I ask because I am not familiar with /θ/ > /f/ being a usual feature of NAE dialects (whereas it is a very common feature of EngE dialects), and the box by each of your posts says you're in the US. (This is ignoring the common alternation between /θ/ and /f/ in twelfth.)

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

What's really common in reckless speech is pronouncing 'baths' almost like "baz" and 'path' like "pafs". But i'm usually able to make a clear distinction

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind my asking, where are you from? I ask because I am not familiar with /θ/ > /f/ being a usual feature of NAE dialects (whereas it is a very common feature of EngE dialects), and the box by each of your posts says you're in the US. (This is ignoring the common alternation between /θ/ and /f/ in twelfth.)

I can relate to path = "pafs" and I'm also in the US, but I'd say baths = "bafs" instead of "baz" and a similar /fs/ ending for the plural of any word ending in /θ/.

[Starbeam]

This is curious, because I tend to perceive the plurals as having /ð/ as being more prescriptively 'correct' for certain values of 'correct' than the plurals with /θ/, so it is interesting that you favor /θ/ in more careful speech and use /ð/ primarily in less careful speech.

What's really common in reckless speech is pronouncing 'baths' almost like "baz" and 'path' like "pafs". But i'm usually able to make a clear distinction

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind my asking, where are you from? I ask because I am not familiar with /θ/ > /f/ being a usual feature of NAE dialects (whereas it is a very common feature of EngE dialects), and the box by each of your posts says you're in the US. (This is ignoring the common alternation between /θ/ and /f/ in twelfth.)

Washington D.C.. Those particular mispronunciations only occur when i'm slurring my words worse than normal. 'Baths' is sometimes 'bavz', in accordance with the pattern going on in 'paths'.

[Richard W]

I similarly pronounce route with MOUTH normally but with GOOSE when it is part of the name of a highway. Router always has MOUTH for me, and I would not even recognize it as the same word if someone pronounced it with GOOSE.

To me, from the UK, route with MOUTH and route with GOOSE are just homographs.

[abahot]

For me as an AmE speaker, "route" is always with GOOSE as a verb and is in free variation GOOSE/MOUTH as a noun.

[Travis B.]

For me as an AmE speaker, "route" is always with GOOSE as a verb and is in free variation GOOSE/MOUTH as a noun.

I have less free variation for route as a verb than as a noun; with route as a noun GOOSE is an acceptable variation for me (even though I would normally use MOUTH except in names like 'Route 66'), but with route as a verb it always has MOUTH. If I heard route the verb with GOOSE in isolation I would think someone meant root as in to root for a team or to root a computer.

Edit: Fixed "route the verb with MOUTH" as "route the verb with GOOSE".

[anteallach]

I similarly pronounce route with MOUTH normally but with GOOSE when it is part of the name of a highway. Router always has MOUTH for me, and I would not even recognize it as the same word if someone pronounced it with GOOSE.

To me, from the UK, route with MOUTH and route with GOOSE are just homographs.

What's route with MOUTH? It's always GOOSE for me.

[Richard W]

I similarly pronounce route with MOUTH normally but with GOOSE when it is part of the name of a highway. Router always has MOUTH for me, and I would not even recognize it as the same word if someone pronounced it with GOOSE.

To me, from the UK, route with MOUTH and route with GOOSE are just homographs.

What's route with MOUTH? It's always GOOSE for me.

Sorry, it's brain fade for rout.

[abahot]

For me as an AmE speaker, "route" is always with GOOSE as a verb and is in free variation GOOSE/MOUTH as a noun.

I have less free variation for route as a verb than as a noun; with route as a noun GOOSE is an acceptable variation for me (even though I would normally use MOUTH except in names like 'Route 66'), but with route as a verb it always has MOUTH. If I heard route the verb with MOUTH in isolation I would think someone meant root as in to root for a team or to root a computer.

Oopsies. I meant to say that it is always MOUTH as a verb, not always GOOSE. That should make more sense.