United States Politics Thread 47

[rotting bones]

I was trying to be helpful, and I've clearly failed, so I'm going to stop now. Sorry for wasting you time on the metaärgument.

I'm not annoyed. I'm asking for examples if you can think of any. I honestly don't understand.

[keenir]

I think this is a general principle. If your friend turns out to be a serial killer, handing him the knife makes you guilty.

if my friend the serial killer is getting threatened by other people in the neighborhood, and I break up the gathering before fisticuffs (or worse) starts and anyone gets hurt...I didn't hand him the knife, nor did I enable him to hurt any of his neighbors. All I did, was affirm his right to exist.

Imagine if, during the height of the tension between Iran and Israel not that long ago, President Trump had said "What Israel's doing is bad very wrong" and then essentially said "and I'm going to let Iran have a free hand in stopping Israel. I might help them stop the bad stuff."

Would that've gotten your approval?

It depends. Wasn't Israel the aggressor in that war? Are you referring to a situation where Trump affirmed Iran's right to defend itself against aggression, or egged them on to attack Israeli civilians in retaliation?

I'm referring to how, sharing your anger over Israel's treatment of Gazans, Trump allows Iran to do whatever it likes to Israel, full stop.

[rotting bones]

if my friend the serial killer is getting threatened by other people in the neighborhood, and I break up the gathering before fisticuffs (or worse) starts and anyone gets hurt...I didn't hand him the knife, nor did I enable him to hurt any of his neighbors. All I did, was affirm his right to exist.

Harris justified Biden's foreign policy, which was responsible for sending weapons to Israel when it was known they were committing war crimes. I'm only comparing people to Hitler when they are explicitly supporting genocide in word or deed.

Aggressors often feel justified. The Germans said they were reacting to the injustice of the Treaty of Versailles. Picking on the weak is the bravery of bullies. Instead of reserving their anger for the British, Germans killed the Jews. In fact, Nazis admired the British and wanted to emulate their colonial empire in Eastern Europe. Instead of displacing Germans for a Jewish Bund, the Jewish diaspora eventually joined the Zionists and started killing Palestinians. The Palestinians themselves adopted Islamism to punch down on their minorities. I'm sure a trans Palestinian somewhere has a dog to kick.

I'm referring to how, sharing your anger over Israel's treatment of Gazans, Trump allows Iran to do whatever it likes to Israel, full stop.

That's genocide. What made you think it would get my approval?

[jcb]

In a move that won't surprise anybody here, Trump failed to win the Nobel Peace Prize, a prize that he's long wanted, but the winner of the prize, María Corina Machado, the opposition leader in Venezuela, talked to Trump and dedicated it to him anyways.
- https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/1 ... n-00601967
- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7842qg15p6o

[keenir]

I'm referring to how, sharing your anger over Israel's treatment of Gazans, Trump allows Iran to do whatever it likes to Israel, full stop.

That's genocide.

So, you don't think Iran could stop itself from wiping out the Israelis, in their effort to be the rescuers and saviors of the Palestinians (particularly Gazans) that their fellow Christians and Sunnis couldn't bring themselves to be/do?

I suppose that makes a measure of sense -- both Iran and Israel enjoy national existences centered around a religion, and thus are far from the Socialist state that they should have achieved had it not been for those meddling kids, er, I mean those danged foreigners and their dog. Therefore, it makes sense that you don't think Iran's top government or military officials would have any more restraint than we've already seen from Israel's top people, being flawed human beings.

What made you think it would get my approval?

Because it was made in reaction to - and to bring to an end - Israel's treatment of Gazans at the time and since.

[keenir]

In a move that won't surprise anybody here, Trump failed to win the Nobel Peace Prize,

I think one commentator pointed out that the decision is made in January, and Trump hadn't done anything other than win an election at that point.

[MacAnDàil]

BTW, a Far Right politician just won the Nobel Peace Prize: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Corina_Machado https://youtu.be/ks9uDtd7Msc Why is it wrong to describe these people as Hitler when so many people have been called Caesar, leftist leaders have been accused of "Bonapartism", etc?

There are some who say her movement is far-right and others that it is liberal feminist. What arguments do you have in favour of the former interpretation?

Maybe because the Holocaust, the most egregious example of industrialized genocide in history (even if there have been other examples of genocide with a similarly proportional death toll), occurred under Hitler's watch, so describing these people as Hitler relativizes and minimizes the Holocaust? Conversely, both Caesar and Bonaparte were largely not genocidal in their actions, and many people in history openly adopted 'Caesar' as a title, such as subsequent Roman emperors (and the German and Russian words for 'emperor' are directly descended from 'Caesar').

She is a narcissistic political leader who supports genocide.

Why do you think that?

[WeepingElf]

BTW, a Far Right politician just won the Nobel Peace Prize: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Corina_Machado https://youtu.be/ks9uDtd7Msc Why is it wrong to describe these people as Hitler when so many people have been called Caesar, leftist leaders have been accused of "Bonapartism", etc?

There are some who say her movement is far-right and others that it is liberal feminist. What arguments do you have in favour of the former interpretation?

Maybe because the Holocaust, the most egregious example of industrialized genocide in history (even if there have been other examples of genocide with a similarly proportional death toll), occurred under Hitler's watch, so describing these people as Hitler relativizes and minimizes the Holocaust? Conversely, both Caesar and Bonaparte were largely not genocidal in their actions, and many people in history openly adopted 'Caesar' as a title, such as subsequent Roman emperors (and the German and Russian words for 'emperor' are directly descended from 'Caesar').

She is a narcissistic political leader who supports genocide.

Why do you think that?

Don't feed the troll!

[jcb]

"Anti-Fascism Scholar Flees U.S. [to Spain] Amid Trump's "Antifa" Fearmongering"
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYlvxpMBHX0

How ironic. It's been almost exactly 50 years since Franco died.

[jcb]

Hegseth tried to get media companies to agree to new restrictive reporting rules or lose their press passes, but they were so restrictive that not even Fox News or Newsmax agreed. The only party that agreed was OANN (One America News Network).
- https://www.cnn.com/2025/10/13/media/pe ... x-fox-news
- https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fi ... rcna237526

In recent days, a wave of other news organizations announced they would not agree to the rules, including The Atlantic, The Associated Press, The Guardian, Newsmax, NPR, Reuters, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post.

[Richard W]

"Anti-Fascism Scholar Flees U.S. [to Spain] Amid Trump's "Antifa" Fearmongering"
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYlvxpMBHX0

How ironic. It's been almost exactly 50 years since Franco died.

I note that Mark Bray didn't feel fleeing to Canada would be adequate. What do we know of plans to deal with waves of US refugees and the assassins pursuing them?

[Torco]

BTW, a Far Right politician just won the Nobel Peace Prize: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Corina_Machado https://youtu.be/ks9uDtd7Msc Why is it wrong to describe these people as Hitler when so many people have been called Caesar, leftist leaders have been accused of "Bonapartism", etc?

There are some who say her movement is far-right and others that it is liberal feminist. What arguments do you have in favour of the former interpretation?

a person could be in some senses a liberal feminist, and in others a fascist. I don't think this is the case with machado, but giorgia meloni is one example, the lesbian lady from alternative for deutschesland is another (one of my exes is yet another). let's see... you'll forgive the spanishness of the sources, of course.

she dedicated the prize to donald trump explicitly, which suggests that at least she supports a far right politician and far right politics in general

she has asked the us government to do regime change in venezuela, which seems like a pretty far right position to me, especially considering the effects such interventions have on the countries where they happen. i don't know how it is in the north, but here in latin america, that's a pretty good indicator.

she's pro bitcoin, though that doesn't close the deal in an of itself, it's at least a good correlate of being rather right wing.

now, she's not *that* right wing either... she's pro gay marriage for example, not opposed to medicinal cannabis, things like that. then again, she did celebrate milei's electoral victory as a triumph of freedom. in summary, i would say that machado, personally, is probably something like a right-libertarian: not religiously fanatic, not interested in rolling back lgbt rights etcetera, but economically neoliberal and politically, by all accounts, aligned with the right.

[Travis B.]

BTW, a Far Right politician just won the Nobel Peace Prize: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Corina_Machado https://youtu.be/ks9uDtd7Msc Why is it wrong to describe these people as Hitler when so many people have been called Caesar, leftist leaders have been accused of "Bonapartism", etc?

There are some who say her movement is far-right and others that it is liberal feminist. What arguments do you have in favour of the former interpretation?

a person could be in some senses a liberal feminist, and in others a fascist. I don't think this is the case with machado, but giorgia meloni is one example, the lesbian lady from alternative for deutschesland is another (one of my exes is yet another). let's see... you'll forgive the spanishness of the sources, of course.

she dedicated the prize to donald trump explicitly, which suggests that at least she supports a far right politician and far right politics in general

she has asked the us government to do regime change in venezuela, which seems like a pretty far right position to me, especially considering the effects such interventions have on the countries where they happen. i don't know how it is in the north, but here in latin america, that's a pretty good indicator.

she's pro bitcoin, though that doesn't close the deal in an of itself, it's at least a good correlate of being rather right wing.

now, she's not *that* right wing either... she's pro gay marriage for example, not opposed to medicinal cannabis, things like that. then again, she did celebrate milei's electoral victory as a triumph of freedom. in summary, i would say that machado, personally, is probably something like a right-libertarian: not religiously fanatic, not interested in rolling back lgbt rights etcetera, but economically neoliberal and politically, by all accounts, aligned with the right.

That's why I said that Machado smells like a center-right politician with misguided views of foreign politicians. If one ignores her views on Trump, Israel, Milei, etc. she does not seem far-right to me.

[jcb]

"Anti-Fascism Scholar Flees U.S. [to Spain] Amid Trump's "Antifa" Fearmongering"
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYlvxpMBHX0

How ironic. It's been almost exactly 50 years since Franco died.

I note that Mark Bray didn't feel fleeing to Canada would be adequate. What do we know of plans to deal with waves of US refugees and the assassins pursuing them?

I have no idea. Fleeing to Spain didn't stop this Russian military pilot who defected to Ukraine from getting assassinated in Spain.
- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-de ... 60-minutes

And of course, fleeing to Mexico didn't stop Trotsky from assassinated there either.

[jcb]

For those that aren't aware, there are big "No Kings" protests planned for this weekend, and the Repubs have taken to calling them "Hate Amreica" rallies. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump tries to use this as an opportunity to declare an emergency, and use the emergency powers to effectively ban all opposition to his rule.
- https://www.latimes.com/politics/newsle ... mp-protest
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTMPwyhvosY

Also, Mike Johnson (speaker of the house) won't swear in Adelita Grijalva, a Democratic house rep from Arizona, citing the current shutdown, but the real reason is because she's said that she'll vote to release the Epstein files, being the critical 218th vote to make it happen, which he obviously wants to avoid.
- https://www.npr.org/2025/10/16/g-s1-937 ... wearing-in

[Torco]

That's why I said that Machado smells like a center-right politician with misguided views of foreign politicians. If one ignores her views on Trump, Israel, Milei, etc. she does not seem far-right to me.

we have a saying in the romance languages: if my grandmother had wheels, she would be a bycicle. I suspect she holds the views she has to in order to be an effective agent for regime change, which seems to be the whole point of her political career.

For those that aren't aware, there are big "No Kings" protests planned for this weekend, and the Repubs have taken to calling them "Hate Amreica" rallies. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump tries to use this as an opportunity to declare an emergency, and use the emergency powers to effectively ban all opposition to his rule.

I've seen predictions to the effect of some insurrection act from the nineteenth century. i'm always amazed at how simplistic their language is, this current crop of fashies... "protest BAD, hate america, me GOOD, love america. they BAD, SAD!"

[rotting bones]

That's why I said that Machado smells like a center-right politician with misguided views of foreign politicians. If one ignores her views on Trump, Israel, Milei, etc. she does not seem far-right to me.

This is an absolutely insane position if you know anything about Machado. She excitedly invites the US and Israel to invade Venezuela, saying, "Good people can make a lot of money here!" She's clearly a far right collaborator like Quisling.

[rotting bones]

Why do you think that?

She endorsed Israel's actions during the 2008 Gaza War. ("The conflict resulted in 1,166–1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths. ... Over 50,800 Gaza residents displaced.") Recently, she was asked again on social media, and she refused to qualify her support for Israel. On top of that, she asks the US and Israel to invade Venezuela, let alone Gaza, and exploit its natural resources. As a right-leaning Venezuelan politician said, no one living in Venezuela wants a foreign invasion of Venezuela.

Interesting that the famous fascist collaborator Quisling was Norwegian by nationality, from the same country that gave her the prize.

Don't feed the troll!

At some point, leftists should leave the land of eternal surprise and learn to predict the future once in a while.

[keenir]

Interesting that the famous fascist collaborator Quisling was Norwegian by nationality, from the same country that gave her the prize.

Yeah, weird that. Its almost as if the Nazis were able to find collaborators in more than just their home country, as well as in countries they were trying to invade.

[Raphael]

Interesting that the famous fascist collaborator Quisling was Norwegian by nationality, from the same country that gave her the prize.

I don't always agree with you, but I wouldn't have expected you to be actually willing to say something that stupid.