What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

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Glenn
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Glenn »

zompist wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:21 am (Boggle) Wow, Jessie Peterson is the former Jessie Sams. I've e-mailed back and forth with her a few times-- she used the LCK in her first conlanging course.
I met Jessie and David briefly when I attended the first Kopikon in Washington, DC, which they organized in September 2023. The other speakers there were Carl Buck, John Quijada, Sally Caves, Sylvia Sotomayor, Mark Okrand, Paul Frommer, and Biblaridion (of YouTube fame). There were conlangers and conlang fans attending from the DC area and beyond, although I'm afraid that I was quite shy and did not interact with more than a handful of people.

I understand that they held Kopikon II in Edinburgh last weekend, which apparently went well, although I have not tried to find out more information (Edinburgh, sadly, was too far for me to attend).
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by bradrn »

Glenn wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:45 am I understand that they held Kopikon II in Edinburgh last weekend, which apparently went well, although I have not tried to find out more information (Edinburgh, sadly, was too far for me to attend).
Wait, what‽‽ I wish I’d known.
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Glenn
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Glenn »

bradrn wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:55 am
Glenn wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:45 am I understand that they held Kopikon II in Edinburgh last weekend, which apparently went well, although I have not tried to find out more information (Edinburgh, sadly, was too far for me to attend).
Wait, what‽‽ I wish I’d known.
I'm sorry you missed it, but I understand that videos of the presentations from both Kopikons are available on YouTube.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by bradrn »

Glenn wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 10:25 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:55 am
Glenn wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:45 am I understand that they held Kopikon II in Edinburgh last weekend, which apparently went well, although I have not tried to find out more information (Edinburgh, sadly, was too far for me to attend).
Wait, what‽‽ I wish I’d known.
I'm sorry you missed it, but I understand that videos of the presentations from both Kopikons are available on YouTube.
I can’t say I’m hugely interested in the presentations themselves; it just would have been nice to get to meet other conlangers for once.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

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Bashkir folk-pop...
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Raphael
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

Content warning: discussion of a book about some pretty gruesome real-life abuses, including sexualized ones.

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I'm currently trying to read Nobody's Girl, the autobiography of Virginia Roberts Giuffre, of fighting-back-against-Jeffrey-Epstein-and-Prince-Andrew fame. Really disturbing stuff. So far, I've made it to the part describing her experiences in a place where parents sent their, really or supposedly, "rebellious" teenagers. At that point, I had to stop for now.

There's a jarring contradiction between the way her co-author's introductory note describes the abusive relationship between her and her husband, and the way the main text occasionally sings her husband's praises. Clearly, when she worked on these parts, she wasn't willing to speak out against her husband yet.

On the whole, it's probably a good sign that I find what I've read so far as disturbing as I find it. I'm pretty sure that there are people reading the book right now who don't find it disturbing at all, but have much less palatable reactions to it, and who read it mainly because of those less palatable reactions.
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Raphael
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

In what might be a rather embarrassing psychological avoidance mechanism, the prospect of reading more about the many horrible things various people did to Virginia Roberts Giuffre made me put Nobody's Girl to the side and instead go back to Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson, which zompist reviewed here: https://zompist.wordpress.com/2025/08/2 ... ions-fail/

I'm somewhere between one third and halfway through the book. Interesting thoughts. I quite like the way they sometimes mention imperial colonies and Stalinist regimes in one breath as very similar examples of what they call "extractive" systems where not much prosperity can be expected. That's a fun way to troll and annoy tankies, and, for that matter, right-wing colonialism apologists.

That said, I already have the impression that they are sometimes stretching things to the breaking point to maintain the story they're trying to tell, by bending their categories so that everything fits into the category their story requires to be in.

For instance, they acknowledge that sometimes, there's economic growth, even rapid economic growth, under some types of what they call "extractive" systems. But they assert that this is always temporary. Well, what kind of economic growth isn't? Sounds to me suspiciously as if they've built their theory in such a way so that economic growth under any kind of system neatly confirms their theory.

They sometimes seem to have a "convenient" way of deciding what's an "extractive" and what's an "inclusive" system. For instance, in the decades after 1688, both England/Britain and Poland were de facto ruled by a large oligarchy with a relatively weak monarch at the top. In England/Britain, the monarch was implicitly a creature of the oligarchy; in Poland the king was explicitly elected by the oligarchy. England/Britain was doing fairly well economically during that time; Poland, apparently less so. The authors explain that the English/British oligarchy of that time was "broad-based" and "inclusive", while the Polish one was "extractive". But they don't seem to elaborate much on that point. A cynic might say that they call the English/British system of that time "inclusive" because it has to be "inclusive" in order for their theory to work, and that they call the Polish system of that time "extractive" because it has to be "extractive" in order for their theory to work.

They have an, IMO, disturbing tendency to equate free markets and individual freedom. Now, I think that, if you measure individual freedom not based on legalistic standards, but based on how many real opportunities to choose between different options actually exist in the lives of most people, not just in the sense that they're theoretically legally allowed to do something, but in the sense that they can really do it, then most people will effectively have the less individual freedom the closer their society is to a pure free-market system.

Early in the book, they bring up, discuss, and try to refute various other possible explanations for differences in wealth between different places. I think at that point, they should at least have mentioned the "It's all just looting and plunder"-theory. That's the idea, apparently popular in some of the less sophisticated parts of the Left, that wealth and prosperity would, naturally, exist to the same extent everywhere in the world, and that, if some places are wealthier than others, that was clearly because they stole the wealth of other places. Now, I don't agree with that idea. For a start, the only major imperial powers whose wealth was probably all just stolen from their colonies were Portugal and Spain, and those two were, historically, among the poorest ones of the imperial powers, and among the ones with the strongest tendency towards domestic authoritarianism. And, there's a lot more overall wealth in the world today than there was at the start of the colonial era. That wouldn't be possible if all that would have happened during that time would have been wealth being moved around through theft. But, the whole idea has a strong intuitive appeal, and it looks as if it fits the historical facts well if you don't look too closely, so I think the authors should at least have acknowledged it.

So far, they never seem to have gotten the idea that a system can be effectively very much what they call "extractive" even if it is legally a free-market economy. That's what the world seems to be moving towards right now. But perhaps they'll get to that later in the book.

One interesting minor point: long ago, Jane Jacobs argued, against the traditional view at the time, that early cities (well, permanent settlements that were big by the standards of the time) had appeared not after, and as a consequence of, the development of agriculture, but before, and as a cause of it. The authors seem to tell us that modern archeological research has at least partly confirmed Jacobs' position.

On the whole, I think I should withhold judgment until I've finished the book.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by zompist »

Not to defend A&R, but a couple of thoughts...
Raphael wrote: Thu Oct 23, 2025 11:38 am For instance, in the decades after 1688, both England/Britain and Poland were de facto ruled by a large oligarchy with a relatively weak monarch at the top. In England/Britain, the monarch was implicitly a creature of the oligarchy; in Poland the king was explicitly elected by the oligarchy. England/Britain was doing fairly well economically during that time; Poland, apparently less so. The authors explain that the English/British oligarchy of that time was "broad-based" and "inclusive", while the Polish one was "extractive". But they don't seem to elaborate much on that point. A cynic might say that they call the English/British system of that time "inclusive" because it has to be "inclusive" in order for their theory to work, and that they call the Polish system of that time "extractive" because it has to be "extractive" in order for their theory to work.
I'm not sure this example does well for either A&R or for you. :) There was some important difference between England and Poland in 1688. After all, just over a century later, Britain was well on its way to dominating the world and Poland was gone. And the difference is surely not restricted to events of that century.

Still, that does leave the question, was the difference evident in 1688? I think they do try to answer this, but also leave room for, well, historical randomness. Not everything is predetermined.

(Also, A&R are busy explaining their Big Idea and sometimes forget that events can be overdetermined. E.g. geography isn't the answer to everything, but it surely is relevant that Britain is an island. It didn't prevent invasions in premodern times, but it sure did in the last 900 years. Poland by contrast is extremely invadable.)
They have an, IMO, disturbing tendency to equate free markets and individual freedom. Now, I think that, if you measure individual freedom not based on legalistic standards, but based on how many real opportunities to choose between different options actually exist in the lives of most people, not just in the sense that they're theoretically legally allowed to do something, but in the sense that they can really do it, then most people will effectively have the less individual freedom the closer their society is to a pure free-market system.
Here I think you're right and wrong. They're pretty clear that freedom includes workers' right to choose and change their career, and I don't think it's disputable that this right didn't exist, or barely so, before the free market. In a traditional society you did what your father did.

It's also informative to look at actual pre-market economies, though we have to go back 5000 years to find them. E.g. in 3000 BCE Sumer, temples and kings had to have workshops to get the luxury goods they wanted, because there was no market to buy them in. And as a corollary, no one but the elite could get those things except as a gift. The market does allow a trade/craftswork sector to grow, and often become independent of the nobility, as in 1600s Britain or Japan. (I don't mean to imply that it developed only then. There were trading states in ancient times.)

Where you're right is in a modern plutocracy, where all too many theorists talk about "economic freedom" only to mean that CEOs can do whatever the hell they want. I think A&R are aware of this problem but they never confront the power grab of the plutocrats in the 1980s. (They seem to have realized after the book was published that something has gone wrong; it's certainly fair to point out that the signs were there all along.)
One interesting minor point: long ago, Jane Jacobs argued, against the traditional view at the time, that early cities (well, permanent settlements that were big by the standards of the time) had appeared not after, and as a consequence of, the development of agriculture, but before, and as a cause of it. The authors seem to tell us that modern archeological research has at least partly confirmed Jacobs' position.
Yes, in the Middle East at least, sedentism preceded agriculture. The Middle East wasn't the only place that developed agriculture, though, so I'm not sure it's a general rule.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Man in Space »

Right now, I’m listening to Car Bomb while I wait for the very loud band rehearsing a few doors down in the studio, and also listening to the very loud band because their drummer is a beast and even this far away it sounds like an earthquake.
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Raphael
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

zompist wrote: Thu Oct 23, 2025 6:21 pm Not to defend A&R, but a couple of thoughts...



I'm not sure this example does well for either A&R or for you. :) There was some important difference between England and Poland in 1688. After all, just over a century later, Britain was well on its way to dominating the world and Poland was gone. And the difference is surely not restricted to events of that century.
Of course there were probably reasons for that, but I'm not sure they really demonstrate that it's about extractive vs. inclusive. Or at least they hadn't in the parts of the book that I had already read when I wrote that. They get a bit more convincing a while later.

Here I think you're right and wrong. They're pretty clear that freedom includes workers' right to choose and change their career, and I don't think it's disputable that this right didn't exist, or barely so, before the free market. In a traditional society you did what your father did.

It's also informative to look at actual pre-market economies, though we have to go back 5000 years to find them. E.g. in 3000 BCE Sumer, temples and kings had to have workshops to get the luxury goods they wanted, because there was no market to buy them in. And as a corollary, no one but the elite could get those things except as a gift. The market does allow a trade/craftswork sector to grow, and often become independent of the nobility, as in 1600s Britain or Japan. (I don't mean to imply that it developed only then. There were trading states in ancient times.)

Where you're right is in a modern plutocracy, where all too many theorists talk about "economic freedom" only to mean that CEOs can do whatever the hell they want. I think A&R are aware of this problem but they never confront the power grab of the plutocrats in the 1980s. (They seem to have realized after the book was published that something has gone wrong; it's certainly fair to point out that the signs were there all along.)
All fair points. I just think that the broad majority of people who are not rich or in higher management have more real freedom under limited capitalism, if it's limited in the right ways, than under unlimited capitalism, and they might have more freedom under the right kind of socialist arrangements, too.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Travis B. »

I would say that the everyday person would be much freer under libertarian socialism or democratic socialism, or under social democracy or even New Deal-style capitalism, than under unrestricted capitalism, due to the everyday person being more restricted in their options and social mobility under unrestricted capitalism. Sure, the upper classes may be 'freer' under unrestricted capitalism, but that does not mean that the everyday person is freer by any reasonable assessment.
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Raphael
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

Travis B. wrote: Fri Oct 24, 2025 9:25 am I would say that the everyday person would be much freer under libertarian socialism or democratic socialism, or under social democracy or even New Deal-style capitalism, than under unrestricted capitalism, due to the everyday person being more restricted in their options and social mobility under unrestricted capitalism. Sure, the upper classes may be 'freer' under unrestricted capitalism, but that does not mean that the everyday person is freer by any reasonable assessment.
Err, yes, that's exactly the point I was making.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Ares Land »

Liberalism, in its historical sense does contribute to freedom and prosperity. The problem is that free market and free enterprise have always been confused with the right to extract unlimited profit from workers and consumers and the right to have the law entirely in the capitalist's favor.

The problem, in short, is that it's always been held that unions or labor laws or taxes on wealth are unsufferable tyranny.

I don't think socialism needs to be anything like the Soviet Union and it's certainly compatible with economic freedom.

Liberalism, again in the historical sense, was certainly a huge step in the right direction, compared with pre-Modern or early Modern economics. And again, the important principles of liberalism aren't at all incompatible with socialism.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Travis B. »

Ares Land wrote: Fri Oct 24, 2025 11:39 am Liberalism, in its historical sense does contribute to freedom and prosperity. The problem is that free market and free enterprise have always been confused with the right to extract unlimited profit from workers and consumers and the right to have the law entirely in the capitalist's favor.

The problem, in short, is that it's always been held that unions or labor laws or taxes on wealth are unsufferable tyranny.

I don't think socialism needs to be anything like the Soviet Union and it's certainly compatible with economic freedom.

Liberalism, again in the historical sense, was certainly a huge step in the right direction, compared with pre-Modern or early Modern economics. And again, the important principles of liberalism aren't at all incompatible with socialism.
In many ways, my own beliefs actually derive a lot from liberalism in its classic sense -- which should be obvious from my posts here -- but differ from it especially in that I believe in possession based on use rather than property based on title, and hence in worker ownership and self-management of capital rather than private or state capitalism.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

Ares Land wrote: Fri Oct 24, 2025 11:39 am Liberalism, in its historical sense does contribute to freedom and prosperity. The problem is that free market and free enterprise have always been confused with the right to extract unlimited profit from workers and consumers and the right to have the law entirely in the capitalist's favor.

The problem, in short, is that it's always been held that unions or labor laws or taxes on wealth are unsufferable tyranny.

I don't think socialism needs to be anything like the Soviet Union and it's certainly compatible with economic freedom.

Liberalism, again in the historical sense, was certainly a huge step in the right direction, compared with pre-Modern or early Modern economics. And again, the important principles of liberalism aren't at all incompatible with socialism.
No real disagreements. I kind of combine some aspects of liberal philosophy with some socialist ideas about economic matters myself.

The problem that I have with the idea of equating free markets and freedom is that I think that if the world puts you in a position where the two options effectively open to you are starving and doing something you really, really don't want to do, then you're as much being coerced into it as if someone puts a gun to your head and makes you do it. And the "freer", in the laissez-faire sense, an economy is, the more often people in that economy will end up in that position.

Let's say you're an employee in a gloriously free completely laissez-faire economy. There's no social safety net, there are no serious unions, and there are generally no workplace protections. You've never been paid enough money to have serious savings. Oh, and the management people tend to know and like each other, or at least stick together against the outside world. Basically, for you, it's keeping your current job or starvation.

And then, one day, your boss tells you that he would like you to literally eat his shit. (I don't mean this metaphorically, but feels free to interpret it as such, if you want to.) He always liked the idea of watching someone eat his shit, and he especially likes the idea of you choosing completely freely to eat his shit, without any coercion involved, simply because you have decided, out of your own free will, that you prefer that option to starvation.

Would this be coercion? Under the standards and philosophical principles of the free-marketers, no. Under my own standards... ...well, it's stuff like this that makes me think that the standards and philosophical principles of the free-marketers are, no pun intended, bullshit.

Under more limited forms of capitalism, bosses still try stuff that's at least a bit like that, but there's at least a bit more of a chance for employees to fight back against that kind of thing. So, for people who are employees rather than bosses, such limitations mean more freedom, not less.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Travis B. »

Liberalism in any sense is blind to the fact that the concept of title is incompatible with freedom -- that title is the root of much of the exploitation and oppression we see today. If it were not for title, one would have the full right to the product of one's labor rather than receiving only the scraps the capitalists dangle in front of one, and one's only 'bosses' would be the other workers with which one collectively shares the capital one uses to work. Even the free market is not the key failing of liberalism, because one as a worker would still be much freer and better off in a free market economy in which workers collectively owned and managed the capital they used. (Free markets would still have their other disadvantages, but it is title which makes them acute.)
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

Belated thought - I just noticed this:
zompist wrote: Thu Oct 23, 2025 6:21 pm Not to defend A&R, but a couple of thoughts...
What do you mean "Not to defend A&R"? In your initial review of the book, you seemed to be quite sympathetic towards them and their ideas, and only objected to some details. Has your opinion of them changed for the worse since then?
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by zompist »

Raphael wrote: Sun Oct 26, 2025 1:10 pm Belated thought - I just noticed this:
zompist wrote: Thu Oct 23, 2025 6:21 pm Not to defend A&R, but a couple of thoughts...
What do you mean "Not to defend A&R"? In your initial review of the book, you seemed to be quite sympathetic towards them and their ideas, and only objected to some details. Has your opinion of them changed for the worse since then?
No, my opinion hasn't changed, but it's more mixed than you seemed to pick up on. I think they've given us an important new tool of thought (extractive vs. inclusive). But my criticisms weren't minor. Missing neocolonialism and plutocracy are big errors.

But also, I don't like to be in the position of responding to aspects of a book and being taken as a defender of everything in it.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

Post by Raphael »

zompist wrote: Sun Oct 26, 2025 3:00 pm

No, my opinion hasn't changed, but it's more mixed than you seemed to pick up on. I think they've given us an important new tool of thought (extractive vs. inclusive). But my criticisms weren't minor. Missing neocolonialism and plutocracy are big errors.

But also, I don't like to be in the position of responding to aspects of a book and being taken as a defender of everything in it.
Fair enough, thank ypu.
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Re: What are you reading, watching and listening to? - All languages

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The Darkness that Comes Before
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