English questions

[jcb]

As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.

My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)

[Travis B.]

As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.

My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)

I've never heard of this, because dialects that raise /æ/ past [ɛ] typically diphthongize it as [eə̯] or even [ɪə̯].

[Raphael]

Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:

I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home

Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?

[Lērisama]

Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:

I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home

Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?

Might be analogised from Oxen?

[bradrn]

Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:

I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home

Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?

Yes, ‘tech-related subcultures‘ is the answer, though it’s getting rarer these days. ‘VAXen’ is also encountered: see the Jargon File.

[Raphael]

Thank you!

[Richard W]

Also Unixen for Unixes or Unices, for the operating systems rather than the boxes running them. By contrast, vaxen refer to the boxes running some version of the VAX/VMS operating system.

[Travis B.]

Also Unixen for Unixes or Unices, for the operating systems rather than the boxes running them. By contrast, vaxen refer to the boxes running some version of the VAX/VMS operating system.

I'm familiar with VAXen referring to the machines rather than the operating system they run. As for the operating systems, Unixes or the irregular plural Unices are more typical than Unixen.

[Travis B.]

Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:

I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home

Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?

Yes, ‘tech-related subcultures‘ is the answer, though it’s getting rarer these days. ‘VAXen’ is also encountered: see the Jargon File.

Yeah, boxen is a traditional plural of box (as in computer) amongst some tech people, by analogy with VAXen, which in turn is by analogy with oxen.

[Raphael]

For what it's worth, "VAXen" sounds to me like some kind of weird English/German mashup, or perhaps simple misspelling, with the meaning "to vaccinate someone" or "to perform a Brazilian wax one someone".

[Travis B.]

I still wish that the canonical plural of shoe in English were shoon (which it was historically in some dialects of English).

[Raphael]

I still wish that the canonical plural of shoe in English were shoon (which it was historically in some dialects of English).

Of course, the German plural of Schuh, at least in the nominative case, is Schuhe, not Schuhen.

[Raphael]

What's the technically "correct" way of putting it?

"Neither Alice nor Bob is going to admit this any time soon."

or

"Neither Alice nor Bob are going to admit this any time soon."

[bradrn]

I’m… not sure. (Sorry.) I think I’d tend towards the first one, though.

[Travis B.]

I’m… not sure. (Sorry.) I think I’d tend towards the first one, though.

Same thought here.

[zompist]

My wife has a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, so here is the technically correct answer: "is". With two singular referents in a disjunction (or, nor, neither/nor, either/or), the verb and any pronouns remain singular. (E.g. "Neither Bob nor Jim opened his wallet.")

It gets interesting when there are mixed pronouns:

Either he or I am in for a surprise.
Either you or he is right.
Neither you nor I am a plumber.

These examples are correct according to the CMS, and follow the rule that the verb agrees with the closest referent. But they also call them "awkward" and suggest rewriting, e.g. "One of us is in for a surprise."

In informal writing, you can often get away with "are", probably because that's the rule for conjunctions— "Bob and I are agreed."

[Man in Space]

As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.

My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)

It’s before the velar nasal instead, but otherwise I do this.

[Richard W]

These examples are correct according to the CMS, and follow the rule that the verb agrees with the closest referent. But they also call them "awkward" and suggest rewriting, e.g. "One of us is in for a surprise."

In informal writing, you can often get away with "are", probably because that's the rule for conjunctions— "Bob and I are agreed."

I believe these are also the rules for British English, with the rule for disjoint 3rd person singulars being one I have to think about - the weightier the subject phrases, the more likely the singular is.

[Raphael]

My wife has a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, so here is the technically correct answer: "is". With two singular referents in a disjunction (or, nor, neither/nor, either/or), the verb and any pronouns remain singular. (E.g. "Neither Bob nor Jim opened his wallet.")

It gets interesting when there are mixed pronouns:

Either he or I am in for a surprise.
Either you or he is right.
Neither you nor I am a plumber.

These examples are correct according to the CMS, and follow the rule that the verb agrees with the closest referent. But they also call them "awkward" and suggest rewriting, e.g. "One of us is in for a surprise."

In informal writing, you can often get away with "are", probably because that's the rule for conjunctions— "Bob and I are agreed."

Thank you!

[jcb]

As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.

My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)

It’s before the velar nasal instead, but otherwise I do this.

I too raise /{/ before /N/ (and /g/), but it's to [{j], except in "hang" which indeed has /ej/. But, unlike many people, I don't raise /{/ before /n/.