Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Raphael
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Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

Post by Raphael »

G. K. Chesterton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton is generally seen as a fairly important writer of the early 20th century, and seems to have been a somewhat interesting personality - if only because being a committed convert to Catholicism in a historically Protestant country led him to combine elements of conservatism and radicalism in ways that might seem weird and contradictory at first. zompist has mentioned him at various points in his writings, usually putting him in a positive light.

From my own perspective, however, the problem is that I first became really aware of Chesterton (though I had heard bits and pieces about him before) when, more than 20 years ago, I read the paragraph focused on him in George Orwell's classic essay Notes on Nationalism https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-or ... tionalism/, which, frankly, left me with the impression that Chesterton probably hadn't written anything worth reading. I'll quote the entire paragraph, though it's fairly long:

Ten or twenty years ago, the form of nationalism most closely corresponding to Communism today was political Catholicism. Its most outstanding exponent – though he was perhaps an extreme case rather than a typical one – was G. K. Chesterton. Chesterton was a writer of considerable talent who chose to suppress both his sensibilities and his intellectual honesty in the cause of Roman Catholic propaganda. During the last twenty years or so of his life, his entire output was in reality an endless repetition of the same thing, under its laboured cleverness as simple and boring as ‘Great is Diana of the Ephesians’. Every book that he wrote, every paragraph, every sentence, every incident in every story, every scrap of dialogue, had to demonstrate beyond possibility of mistake the superiority of the Catholic over the Protestant or the pagan. But Chesterton was not content to think of this superiority as merely intellectual or spiritual: it had to be translated into terms of national prestige and military power, which entailed an ignorant idealization of the Latin countries, especially France. Chesterton had not lived long in France, and his picture of it – as a land of Catholic peasants incessantly singing the Marseillaise over glasses of red wine – had about as much relation to reality as Chu Chin Chow has to everyday life in Baghdad. And with this went not only an enormous over-estimation of French military power (both before and after 1914-18 he maintained that France, by itself, was stronger than Germany), but a silly and vulgar glorification of the actual process of war. Chesterton’s battle poems, such as ‘Lepanto’ or ‘The Ballad of Saint Barbara’, make ‘The Charge of the Light Brigade’ read like a pacifist tract: they are perhaps the most tawdry bits of bombast to be found in our language. The interesting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually wrote about France and the French army been written by somebody else about Britain and the British army, he would have been the first to jeer. In home politics he was a Little Englander, a true hater of jingoism and imperialism, and according to his lights a true friend of democracy. Yet when he looked outwards into the international field, he could forsake his principles without even noticing he was doing so. Thus, his almost mystical belief in the virtues of democracy did not prevent him from admiring Mussolini. Mussolini had destroyed the representative government and the freedom of the press for which Chesterton had struggled so hard at home, but Mussolini was an Italian and had made Italy strong, and that settled the matter. Nor did Chesterton ever find a word to say about imperialism and the conquest of coloured [sic] races when they were practised by Italians or Frenchmen. His hold on reality, his literary taste, and even to some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his nationalistic loyalties were involved.
To be blunt, this gave me the impression that Chesterton was simply one of the people who break with the main orthodoxy of their time and place by simply becoming uncritical followers of a different orthodoxy. I usually see that kind of thing as, frankly, intellectually boring and uninspired, about as interesting as a ca. 2007 emo kid who thinks that the fullest expression of individuality lies in being exactly like all the other emo kids.

But I'm wondering now. Am I being too harsh on Chesterton? Was Orwell too harsh on Chesterton? Should I try reading something by Chesterton after all? And if so, which of his writings?
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Raphael wrote: Sat Nov 15, 2025 6:14 pm But I'm wondering now. Am I being too harsh on Chesterton? Was Orwell too harsh on Chesterton? Should I try reading something by Chesterton after all? And if so, which of his writings?
Well, my first question is of course, "What the hell is Chu Chin Chow?" It turns out to be a musical from 1916, also made into a movie as late as 1934. It sounds pretty silly.

Anyway, to answer your question: Orwell is not too harsh on Chesterton politically— he literally went from the Liberal to the Conservative party over the decades. But most of the things Orwell is complaining about are in his newspaper columns and radio broadcasts— things you are not likely to be able to find, much less consume. Chesterton's instincts are not always wrong— he distrusted the big -isms— but he also used his considerable intellect to make clever but wrong-headed defenses of things that should not be defended, like male-only suffrage.

He's best known today for his Father Brown stories. If you like detective stories they are certainly worth reading. They were mostly written before his conversion, so are no more regressive than anything else from the 1910s.

If you're interested in Christian theology he is one of the more interesting defenders, and books like Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man are the best showcases for his disarming wit, and for demonstrating why some people find theology exciting. I would note that Orwell would not join you in refusing to read a writer because he is ideologically suspect. Orwell is even harsher on (say) Rudyard Kipling, but it's also evident that he's read pretty much all of Kipling. Of course, if you have no interest in theology you probably would get nothing from these.

His novels The Man Who Was Thursday and The Napoleon of Notting Hill, from the first decade of the 1900s, are whimsical fun if you like them, irritatingly contrarian if you don't. He can be quite amusing on the ideological and cultural fads of his time; his own deeper preoccupations are perhaps just as weird, but also not very likely to tempt you. (As I've pointed out, a sort of rosy-tinted medievalism is also present in Gandhi, who usually gets much more of a pass than Chesterton.)
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Thank you! I watched a few German movie adaptations of Father Brown which had been made in, I think, the 1950s or 1960s, on TV when I was growing up. I think I remember quite liking them, although of course I can't tell how fateful they were to the source material. A while later, there was a German TV "adaptation in spirit" which changed the location to Germany and the priest's name to "Braun".

My problem with Chesterton wouldn't so much be about having politics different from mine. As I wrote in earlier posts, one of my favorite books is Terry Pratchett's Jingo although I'm very much not a pacifist, and I quite like Richard Adams' Watership Down although I disagree with the conservative politics of the book. No, my problem would be more that I have the impression that Chesterton dramatically lacked in self-awareness.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Chesterton is one of those writers I’m in two minds about. At his best, I feel he can be astonishingly perceptive about human behaviour. (When I was in the middle of battling my OCD, I recall encountering one passage in Orthodoxy which felt like he was reading my mind from the inside.) I think his discussion of Christian philosophy and ethics, as communicated through his stories, can be worthwhile even for a non-Christian. And of course, considered simply as a writer of English prose and poetry he’s excellent.

Set against this is his deeply-held antisemitism, sexism, all-round contempt of any non-Christian religion and general regressiveness. (Albeit not quite as bad as that of his friend Belloc… but when you’ve said that you’ve said everything, really.) He’s one of those writers who gives me whiplash as he abruptly changes from fascinating ideas to deranged prejudice and back again.

So I think the answer to ‘is he worth reading?’ is basically yes, but with caveats: he varies wildly depending on what you read. My favourites are The Man who was Thursday and most of the Father Brown stories; of what else of his I’ve read, the quality varies, and there’s bits I love and bits I hate.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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On the plus side, in Chesterton's time, the Conservatives in power were more likely to support government intervention. They were like today's Old World nationalists. The Liberals in power were like today's libertarians. The far left was seen as similar to today's Islamists in elite circles. However, there were nascent socialist movements, and Chesterton didn't support them either except in unproductive ways.

IIRC in Britain, Catholicism was associated with the Irish cause. Intellectuals associated it with causes like not forcing the Chinese to buy opium the British forced farmers in Bengal to grow instead of food. Being a Catholic could be seen as converting to Islam in solidarity with Palestine.

(Since then, the Marxists have spawned today's hard left, while moderate Keynesianism has given rise to the neoliberal establishment all voters hate.)

On the minus side, Chesterton was a lot like Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson tells you to clean your room. Chesterton tells you to love your neighbour instead of thinking about society. My problem is, I precisely think fixing society has a higher priority than loving my neighbour, which doesn't necessarily do any good to anyone no matter how wise it sounds. There is nothing wrong with thinking society needs to be fixed when it in fact does.

Overall, I dislike Chesterton. I regard all the time I spent reading him because so many 21st century influencers like him as a waste of my time. I could have used that time studying calculus instead.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

Post by Raphael »

Thank you!
rotting bones wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 11:20 pm Jordan Peterson tells you to clean your room.
Interesting to hear. I haven't read him, and have no plans of doing so, but judging from what I've read about him, I had the impression that he's mainly telling people, or at least men, to act like a stereotypical US high school jock.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Raphael wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 12:12 am Interesting to hear. I haven't read him, and have no plans of doing so, but judging from what I've read about him, I had the impression that he's mainly telling people, or at least men, to act like a stereotypical US high school jock.
Absolutely not. He has the psychotherapist angle of letting out aggression being healthy. Other than that, he tells people to forget about society and the world and clean their room first. This was an appealing message for a lot of young men looking for father figures. He also tells people to invest in the intellectual life, pet any cat that crosses your path, and basically be a good conservative boy who loves his parents and other common sense authority figures.

He supports universal healthcare, redistribution of wealth towards the poor, and the decriminalization of drugs. He wants to be seen as a sensitive intellectual. That could be why he sounds like he's crying instead of the stereotypical alpha male. Well, that and the brain damage he subjected himself to. Last I heard, he's basically a vegetable.

However, he thinks the left is too far in favor of redistribution because his ideal is "equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome". He thinks equality of outcome is impossible because of the Pareto principle. I don't think I've ever heard him answer the common left-wing rejoinder that without some equality of outcome for the parents, equality of opportunity is impossible for their kids. He also thinks women wear lipstick to appear sexually available.

I think Jordan Peterson is basically a right-wing Swede who supports the Swedish model overall. He is probably more right-wing than Chesterton, who supported radical land redistribution IIRC.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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On reflection, Jordan Peterson's most right-wing talking points are probably his idea that Western countries should be culturally "Judeo-Christian". He had long conversations with Steven Pinker about how the Western enlightenment is making life better for everyone. If he was ever subjected to the withering criticism Mehdi Hasan directed at Steven Pinker; i.e., that scholars of poverty say if you use a more sane metric of poverty, then global poverty is actually increasing, I must have missed it.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Ah, thank you. I was mainly going by what I had heard about his cautionary tales involving lobsters. That is, how lobsters supposedly get more respected by other lobsters if they're more assertive, aggressive, and confident.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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rotting bones wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 12:35 am If he was ever subjected to the withering criticism Mehdi Hasan directed at Steven Pinker; i.e., that scholars of poverty say if you use a more sane metric of poverty, then global poverty is actually increasing, I must have missed it.
Now that's something I haven't heard before. Any more on that?
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Raphael wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 12:38 am Now that's something I haven't heard before. Any more on that?
You should have asked me when I posted it here around 2019. I don't have all my sources lines up. (In fact, I haven't slept since yesterday.) However, I was able to turn this up: https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2 ... al-poverty
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Raphael wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 12:37 am Ah, thank you. I was mainly going by what I had heard about his cautionary tales involving lobsters. That is, how lobsters supposedly get more respected by other lobsters if they're more assertive, aggressive, and confident.
Yes, but he hides behind a liberal facade. You know what the right-wingers are like.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

Post by Raphael »

I don't think that the claim that global poverty has been on the decline lately is a speciality of Pinker's, so it's a bit weird to talk specifically about Pinker when trying to refute that claim.
rotting bones wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 12:53 am
Yes, but he hides behind a liberal facade. You know what the right-wingers are like.
I'd say some of them like to hide behind a liberal facade, but that has become less common recently.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Raphael wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 1:07 am I don't think that the claim that global poverty has been on the decline lately is a speciality of Pinker's, so it's a bit weird to talk specifically about Pinker when trying to refute that claim.
He's a great popularizer of that claim, especially online, where he leverages his credentials as a scientist. The person I linked you to is an academic expert on poverty.
Raphael wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 1:07 am I'd say some of them like to hide behind a liberal facade, but that has become less common recently.
He's too brain damaged to do anything effectively as of late.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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I have to say, Jordan Peterson has also been very vocal about not protesting against anyone higher than you on the social ladder. Given that he supports expressing aggression and being meek towards your superiors, the net effect is that he's telling you to punch down on someone more oppressed than you.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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I have my doubts about the comparison.

No matter his faults (I never read him, so really, I don't know), Chesterton is still kind of influential now. I barely remember Jordan Peterson.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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Ares Land wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 2:08 am I have my doubts about the comparison.

No matter his faults (I never read him, so really, I don't know), Chesterton is still kind of influential now. I barely remember Jordan Peterson.
Jordan Peterson has been one of the top public intellectuals of my lifetime. There was a time when the manosphere was him and Andrew Tate. He drove a lot of the effort behind anti-trans activism online and left a generation of imitators behind him.

His platforms had billions of subscribers. His primary content was lectures on psychology. Billions of subscribers.

What they have in common is that they both wanted society to be based on Christianity. One difference is that for Jordan Peterson, it was a crank's New Age fever dream version of Christianity.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

Post by zompist »

rotting bones wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 2:17 am His platforms had billions of subscribers. His primary content was lectures on psychology. Billions of subscribers.
He has 8 million subscribers on Youtube, so he must be a shadow of his former self.
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Re: Should I bother to try reading G. K. Chesterton?

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zompist wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 2:27 am He has 8 million subscribers on Youtube, so he must be a shadow of his former self.
He has been annoying his viewers for a long time. Like I said, now he is a vegetable. 8 million people are subscribed to a vegetable.
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