English questions

[Raphael]

That context would very much not be a context for doch. Doch is basically a negation of a negation. "I heard you don't like orange juice?" - "Doch, I do."

It can be used like "actually", but I'd say "actually" has a much broader range of meanings.

In German, I guess one possible word in that scene would be "wirklich" "really", in a questioning-kind-of-way.

[zompist]

The natural way to say what she meant to say in English (my American English, anyway) would have been something like "Actually, I would [in fact] like to go through here [after all]."

It got me thinking that "actually" is really an important word in spoken (and written) English. It seems to play an important role in the utterances of the guy who takes Bradley Martyn's hat (and is thereupon slapped by the same) in this clip.

I think you're right, it's very pragmatically marked. I'd say it's used as a dispreferred response-- something that marks, sometimes aggressively, that the speaker is not going along with the current consensus.

In the case of the kid swiping the hat, it reads to me as a protest, though a mild one. Like "You really did that? I guess you had a right to but still." It comes off as a little pathetic, but it's hard to save face when caught trolling and being punished for it.

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else have some very limited set of cases where, despite otherwise having a complete weak vowel merger, where their weak vowel merger seemingly isn't quite complete?

Consider the words against [{əː,ɘː}ˈɡɜ̃nts(t)] versus ignore [ɘːɡˈnɔ(ː)ʁˤ] and account [{ə,ɘ}ˈkʰɑ̃̆ɔ̯̃̆ʔ(t)] versus ichneumon [ɘʔkˈnʲʷỹːmɘ̃(ː)(n)].

Of course, on second thought (at this horrible hour in the morning), this could be due to syllabification rather than a true preserved phonemic distinction... Note acknowledge [ɘɡˈnaːɯ̯ɘːtʃ]...

Edit: There also seems to be a marginal contrast in cases between the usual weak vowel and reduced /i/ as shown by aquatic [əˈkʷʰw̥ɑɾɘʔk] versus equality [ɘˈkʷʰw̥ɑːɯ̯ɘɾi(ː)].

[Travis B.]

On another note -- does anyone have NEAR in curious? I don't have this, but I can't help but hear other people who do.

[Starbeam]

On another note -- does anyone have NEAR in curious? I don't have this, but I can't help but hear other people who do.

Yes, and i have it other words like bureau and demure. The thing is, it doesn't occur in monosyllables (lure) and i try not to do it in general

[Travis B.]

On another note -- does anyone have NEAR in curious? I don't have this, but I can't help but hear other people who do.

Yes, and i have it other words like bureau and demure. The thing is, it doesn't occur in monosyllables (lure) and i try not to do it in general

Interesting! I've never heard this in bureau or demure (not that I hear those words that often IRL), only in curious.

[jal]

She asked me if there was a way in English to account for her change of mind like doch would in German, and I told her the magic word would be actually.

I'd probably use "anyway" here? "I would like to go anyway"? Or perhaps "after all", "I would like to go after all"? The "actually" is just to soften the message.

That context would very much not be a context for doch.

That's interesting, because it would be exactly the use of Dutch cognate "toch" (which can't be used for the negation of negation like German): "ik wil eigenlijk toch wel gaan".


JAL

[Raphael]

That context would very much not be a context for doch.

That's interesting, because it would be exactly the use of Dutch cognate "toch" (which can't be used for the negation of negation like German): "ik wil eigenlijk toch wel gaan".


JAL

I meant the context of the Youtube clip äreo had linked to.

[Travis B.]

She asked me if there was a way in English to account for her change of mind like doch would in German, and I told her the magic word would be actually.

I'd probably use "anyway" here? "I would like to go anyway"? Or perhaps "after all", "I would like to go after all"? The "actually" is just to soften the message.

I myself would say "Actually, I would like to go" here.

[äreo]

She asked me if there was a way in English to account for her change of mind like doch would in German, and I told her the magic word would be actually.

I'd probably use "anyway" here? "I would like to go anyway"? Or perhaps "after all", "I would like to go after all"? The "actually" is just to soften the message.

To my ears, "I would like to go [anyway]/[after all]" on its own could still seem a bit rude and abrupt. "After all" is a bit softer than "anyway" though, and intonation would play a role too.

Thinking about it more, "anyway" doesn't quite sound natural to me here. "Anyway" would make more sense if you had been cautioned against going that way and wanted to express your desire to go in spite of that warning, but as a pivot from something you yourself said (that you didn't want to go that way) it doesn't feel quite right.

You're right that "actually" softens the message, but that's not all it's doing. It's introducing the possibility of a contradiction or alteration in relation to what was previously said, very much like "after all." It could arguably still use some additional softening, with "Forgive me, but..." and/or with the right gentle intonation and facial expression.

[Travis B.]

She asked me if there was a way in English to account for her change of mind like doch would in German, and I told her the magic word would be actually.

I'd probably use "anyway" here? "I would like to go anyway"? Or perhaps "after all", "I would like to go after all"? The "actually" is just to soften the message.

To my ears, "I would like to go [anyway]/[after all]" on its own could still seem a bit rude and abrupt. "After all" is a bit softer than "anyway" though, and intonation would play a role too.

Thinking about it more, "anyway" doesn't quite sound natural to me here. "Anyway" would make more sense if you had been cautioned against going that way and wanted to express your desire to go in spite of that warning, but as a pivot from something you yourself said (that you didn't want to go that way) it doesn't feel quite right.

You're right that "actually" softens the message, but that's not all it's doing. It's introducing the possibility of a contradiction or alteration in relation to what was previously said, very much like "after all." It could arguably still use some additional softening, with "Forgive me, but..." and/or with the right gentle intonation and facial expression.

"Anyway" does not feel right for changing one's own mind on something to me.

[Richard W]

You're right that "actually" softens the message, but that's not all it's doing. It's introducing the possibility of a contradiction or alteration in relation to what was previously said, very much like "after all." It could arguably still use some additional softening, with "Forgive me, but..." and/or with the right gentle intonation and facial expression.

I would use, "On second thoughts". Is this disqualified for being three words, rather than one? It also serves to counter a positive, which might also disqualify it.

[äreo]

You're right that "actually" softens the message, but that's not all it's doing. It's introducing the possibility of a contradiction or alteration in relation to what was previously said, very much like "after all." It could arguably still use some additional softening, with "Forgive me, but..." and/or with the right gentle intonation and facial expression.

I would use, "On second thoughts". Is this disqualified for being three words, rather than one? It also serves to counter a positive, which might also disqualify it.

"On second thought" is something I could see myself saying in that situation as well. It matches what "actually" is doing. In other situations of course "actually" has a broader applicability.

[jcb]

On another note -- does anyone have NEAR in curious? I don't have this, but I can't help but hear other people who do.

Yes, I do, as I detailed on page 105 of this thread:

/ir/: pure, cure, curious, secure, fury, bureau

On another note -- does anyone have NEAR in curious? I don't have this, but I can't help but hear other people who do.

Yes, and i have it other words like bureau and demure. The thing is, it doesn't occur in monosyllables (lure) and i try not to do it in general

Monosyllabicity (or not) is not the determining factor for me. Instead, it has to do with what environment the /jr=/ (formerly /jur/) that it evolved from was around. /j/ got deleted around coronals ("lure, mature, endure, tourney, sure, manure"), which were then stuck with /r=/, but remained around labials and velars, where it then evolved in /ir/.

What do you have in "cure" and "pure"?

[Starbeam]

On another note -- does anyone have NEAR in curious? I don't have this, but I can't help but hear other people who do.

Yes, and i have it other words like bureau and demure. The thing is, it doesn't occur in monosyllables (lure) and i try not to do it in general

Monosyllabicity (or not) is not the determining factor for me. Instead, it has to do with what environment the /jr=/ (formerly /jur/) that it evolved from was around. /j/ got deleted around coronals ("lure, mature, endure, tourney, sure, manure"), which were then stuck with /r=/, but remained around labials and velars, where it then evolved in /ir/.

What do you have in "cure" and "pure"?

"Cure" and "pure" both have something like /jy˞/~/jɝ/. You have a point with it also being affected by the surrounding consonants ("mural" has it but "endure" doesn't). I honestly didn't notice that. It never occurs with yod-coalescence, so "azure" is at most /əʒjɝ/. I might be screwing up the reduced vowels, but the point should be clear. Nor does it occur if it starts the word, as in "urology". I dislike merging phonemes in my speech so it's something i've been working on not doing in general, tho it slips out a fair bit.

[Travis B.]

I've never heard this in cure or pure, unlike curious for which it seems like a pretty common pronunciation.

[jcb]

I've never heard this in cure or pure, unlike curkious for which it seems like a pretty common pronunciation.

For some people, the /i/ might be bleeding over from the "i":
/kjuri@s/ -> /kjujri@s/ -> /kiri@s/

Nor does it occur if it starts the word, as in "urology".

Agreed.

/jr=/: Ural, euro, Europe, your (quick speech)

And "urology".

You have a point with it also being affected by the surrounding consonants ("mural" has it but "endure" doesn't).

I think it's the same sound change that deleted the /j/ in "tube, dew, sue, new/, but left it in "few, mu, cue, hue".

[Travis B.]

I've never heard this in cure or pure, unlike curkious for which it seems like a pretty common pronunciation.

For some people, the /i/ might be bleeding over from the "i":
/kjuri@s/ -> /kjujri@s/ -> /kiri@s/

At least for me, unreduced /u/ after /j/ and before /r/ is normally realized as [y̆ŭ̯]~[yu̯], and when I realize the vowel in the first syllable curious as a close vowel it comes out as [yː].

Edit: Interestingly, when I try to pronounce curious as /ˈkjuriəs/ the /r/ comes out as [ɹ] rather than my usual [ʁˤ].

[Travis B.]

I just realized that I pronounce /ju/ as [ɥy(ː)] or [ɥy̆ŭ̯]~[ɥyu̯] depending on environment and any preceding consonant also gets labialized (e.g. cure when pronounced carefully is really [cʷʰɥ̥{y̆ŭ̯,yu̯}ʁˤ] for me).

[jal]

I just realized that I pronounce /ju/ as [ɥy(ː)] or [ɥy̆ŭ̯]~[ɥyu̯] depending on environment and any preceding consonant also gets labialized (e.g. cure when pronounced carefully is really [cʷʰɥ̥{y̆ŭ̯,yu̯}ʁˤ] for me).

That's pretty fronted.


JAL