Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[malloc]

According to something I heard on the radio yesterday, "calque" is a loanword, whereas "loanword" is a calque. How many other languages have this, or similar?

What kind of radio station has discussions of linguistics as a major topic?

[Travis B.]

According to something I heard on the radio yesterday, "calque" is a loanword, whereas "loanword" is a calque. How many other languages have this, or similar?

Many languages have borrowed calque from French with its linguistic meaning, but the only Germanic language other than English listed by Wiktionary has having done so is Yiddish. Conversely, many languages have calqued Lehnwort from German, but all of these listed by Wiktionary are other Germanic languages.

[Raphael]

According to something I heard on the radio yesterday, "calque" is a loanword, whereas "loanword" is a calque. How many other languages have this, or similar?

What kind of radio station has discussions of linguistics as a major topic?

The Beeb?

[Travis B.]

According to something I heard on the radio yesterday, "calque" is a loanword, whereas "loanword" is a calque. How many other languages have this, or similar?

What kind of radio station has discussions of linguistics as a major topic?

The Beeb?

I almost read that as "the Zeeb" for a second.

[Raphael]

What kind of radio station has discussions of linguistics as a major topic?

The Beeb?

I almost read that as "the Zeeb" for a second.

If it wasn't for the fact that everyone already has a podcast, I'd find the idea of a Zeeb radio quite interesting.

[Starbeam]

You're listening to W-ZBB The Words, all the languages we made up and several hundred more we didn't. Up next, Magma-

[alice]

According to something I heard on the radio yesterday, "calque" is a loanword, whereas "loanword" is a calque. How many other languages have this, or similar?

What kind of radio station has discussions of linguistics as a major topic?

The Beeb?

Radio 4, to be precise. Which will probably mean nothing to much of the ZBB.

[Lērisama]

What kind of radio station has discussions of linguistics as a major topic?

The Beeb?

Radio 4, to be precise. Which will probably mean nothing to much of the ZBB.

But set me smiling. Of course it is¹. What programme? An offhand comment in In Our Time?

¹ For German-speaking readers, imagine something 3sat-ish², but a radio station
² I think, from what I know about 3sat. It's highbrow with a cultural bias. And the Archers.

[Man in Space]

I just realized something but a quick google fu exercise later and I hadn’t turned up anything on it.

nolo, non vis, non vult, nolumus, non vultis, nolunt

The only cases where the contraction occurred are ones in which an Intervocalic /l/ appears—non vis lacks an /l/ entirely and in non vult and non vultis have the intrusive /t/. Maybe it was haplology with some sort of specific lambda affectation?

[zompist]

I just realized something but a quick google fu exercise later and I hadn’t turned up anything on it.

nolo, non vis, non vult, nolumus, non vultis, nolunt

The only cases where the contraction occurred are ones in which an Intervocalic /l/ appears—non vis lacks an /l/ entirely and in non vult and non vultis have the intrusive /t/. Maybe it was haplology with some sort of specific lambda affectation?

More salient, I think, is the [wo] combination. The final -n was probably lost, so you'd get e.g. [nõ wolo:] > [no:lo:]. When the vowels weren't the same, the contraction didn't occur.

[Richard W]

I just realized something but a quick google fu exercise later and I hadn’t turned up anything on it.

nolo, non vis, non vult, nolumus, non vultis, nolunt

The only cases where the contraction occurred are ones in which an Intervocalic /l/ appears—non vis lacks an /l/ entirely and in non vult and non vultis have the intrusive /t/. Maybe it was haplology with some sort of specific lambda affectation?

More salient, I think, is the [wo] combination. The eʎwo]final -n was probably lost, so you'd get e.g. [nõ wolo:] > [no:lo:]. When the vowels weren't the same, the contraction didn't occur.

I think it's more a contraction of /eːwo/ to /oː/, with the general replacement of nē by nōn in the indicative being later,

[Qwynegold]

Some of you seem to be knowledgeable about the languages of New Guinea, or at least have read a lot about them. I hope someone can answer this question. I thought that Trans-New Guinea was just a catch-all term, but the Wikipedia article says this:

The core of the family is considered to be established, but its boundaries and overall membership are uncertain.

Is this true? What is the core in that case?

[bradrn]

Some of you seem to be knowledgeable about the languages of New Guinea, or at least have read a lot about them. I hope someone can answer this question. I thought that Trans-New Guinea was just a catch-all term, but the Wikipedia article says this:

The core of the family is considered to be established, but its boundaries and overall membership are uncertain.

Is this true? What is the core in that case?

This is pretty accurate. Palmer’s The Languages and Linguistics of the New Guinea Area (2018) says:

Groups with relatively strong evidence supporting TNG membership, include Angan, Anim, Asmat-Kamoro, Awin-Pa, Bosavi, Chimbu-Wahgi, Dagan, Dani, Duna-Bogaya, East Strickland, Enga-Kewa-Huli, Finisterre-Huon, Gogodala-Suki, Goilalan, Greater Awyu, Greater Binanderean, Kainantu-Goroka, Kayagaric, Kiwaian, Koiarian, Kolopom, Kutubu, Kwalean, Madang, Mailuan, Manubaran, Mek, Marori, Ok-Oksapmin, Paniai (Wissel) Lakes, Somahai, Turama-Kikori, West Bomberai, Wiru, and Yareban.

[…]

A number of groups and isolates have weak claims to membership in, or may have a distant relationship to TNG. These include Bayono-Awbono, Komolom, Mairasi, Pauwasi, Pawaian, Sentanic, South Bird’s Head, Tanah Merah, Teberan, Timor-Alor-Pantar and Uhunduni.

[…]

A number of other groups and isolates have at some point or another been assigned to TNG but without sufficient supporting evidence, i. e. without any convincing reflexes of pTNG pronouns or lexical items. These include Dem, Eleman, Kaki Ae, Kamula, Kaure-Narau, Mor, Porome and Purari.

[jal]

Pre-islamic script deciphered.


JAL

[Travis B.]

I've noticed that, from listening to my Mandarin-speaking coworkers, I perceive both Mandarin /s/ and /ʂ/ as akin to my native English /s/ and both Mandarin /ts/ and /tʂ/ as akin to my native English /z/ (not /ts/) for some reason. I also perceive Mandarin /ɕ/ as akin to my native English /ʃ/ and Mandarin /tɕ/ as akin to my native English /dʒ/. Of course, [ɕ] is an allophone of my native English /ʃ/ and [tɕ] is an allophone of my native English /dʒ/.

[Nortaneous]

I perceive Mandarin /ɕ/ as closer to English /s/ than to English /ʃ/, and Mandarin /ʂ/ as close enough to English /ʃ/. Similarly, /tʂ/ maps to /dʒ/, /tɕ/ seems like a funny /dz/, etc. But I have no [ɕ] (or [tɕ], etc.) anywhere.

[salem]

I've noticed that, from listening to my Mandarin-speaking coworkers, I perceive both Mandarin /s/ and /ʂ/ as akin to my native English /s/ and both Mandarin /ts/ and /tʂ/ as akin to my native English /z/ (not /ts/) for some reason. I also perceive Mandarin /ɕ/ as akin to my native English /ʃ/ and Mandarin /tɕ/ as akin to my native English /dʒ/. Of course, [ɕ] is an allophone of my native English /ʃ/ and [tɕ] is an allophone of my native English /dʒ/.

It's possible your coworkers are speaking a Manadrin lect in which the alveolars and retroflexes are merged, as in eg Sichuan, depending on where they're from I suppose. I dunno about the /z/ thing though – is it maybe that your English /s/ is aspirated, and with voicing already weak you perceive [ts] as more similar to [z]̥ than to [sʰ]?

[Travis B.]

I've noticed that, from listening to my Mandarin-speaking coworkers, I perceive both Mandarin /s/ and /ʂ/ as akin to my native English /s/ and both Mandarin /ts/ and /tʂ/ as akin to my native English /z/ (not /ts/) for some reason. I also perceive Mandarin /ɕ/ as akin to my native English /ʃ/ and Mandarin /tɕ/ as akin to my native English /dʒ/. Of course, [ɕ] is an allophone of my native English /ʃ/ and [tɕ] is an allophone of my native English /dʒ/.

It's possible your coworkers are speaking a Manadrin lect in which the alveolars and retroflexes are merged, as in eg Sichuan, depending on where they're from I suppose.

I doubt they're all Sichuanese or like; I can hear a faint difference when I listen carefully, but it does not register with me intuitively. I think the real issue is that my native [ʃ] and [tʃ] (which I would hear as /dʒ/) are too palatal for me to map the Mandarin sounds to them. The Mandarin sounds sound like they might be apical* postalveolar to me (the Wiki says that Mandarin palatoalveolar consonants are apical), and when I try to pronounce apical postalveolar sibilants I intuitively perceive them as akin to my front sibilant phonemes (even though mine are laminal rather than apical) rather than my back sibilant phonemes.

* I don't mean in the traditional Sinological meaning of "apical" here but simply as in pronounced with the tip of the tongue.

I dunno about the /z/ thing though – is it maybe that your English /s/ is aspirated, and with voicing already weak you perceive [ts] as more similar to [z]̥ than to [sʰ]?

My native /s/ has two primary allophones, a fronted allophone that seems to be dentialveolar and a back allophone that seems to be palatalized alveolar, while my native /z/ seems to have alveolar and palatalized alveolar allophones (before you take allophonic devoicing into account), without any dental articulation. [ts] seems to map to /z/ because I perceive true alveolar [ts] when I pronounce it (without aspiration, preglottalization, or a short preceding vowel) as /dz/ but /dz/ does not strongly contrast with /z/ for me (for instance, I could analyze Lindsay as /ˈlɪndzi/ or as /ˈlɪnzi/, it does not make a real difference to me).

[Travis B.]

Okay, to break it down, while I have the same standard set of English sibilant phonemes as everyone else (i.e. /s z ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ/), as I have mentioned on here they are complicated by that each of them has front and back allophones based on adjacent consonants and vowels in a rather complex fashion that I am not going to attempt to detail here.

Also, from a superficial analysis one might come to the conclusion that these front and back realizations are actually separate phonemes (as a consequence of that /st/ outside of final position can be realized as [sʲː] and /ʃtʃ/ can be realized as [ɕː], and in quick speech these are sometimes shortened to [sʲ] and [ɕ]), but I have come to the conclusion that such an analysis is mistaken.

As I mentioned above, /s/ has a front realization that is laminal dentialveolar and a back realization that is palatalized laminal alveolar.

/z/ has a front realization that is laminal alveolar and a back realization that is palatalized laminal alveolar.

/ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ/ all have front realizations that are laminal palatoalveolar and back realizations that are laminal alveolopalatal.

Note that all of the lenis sibilants have voiceless allophones, and /dʒ/ is always voiceless except when deliberately overpronounced (and yes, minimal pairs with /tʃ/ based on aspiration or preceding vowel length alone can be formed).

[Starbeam]

Okay, to break it down, while I have the same standard set of English sibilant phonemes as everyone else (i.e. /s z ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ/), as I have mentioned on here they are complicated by that each of them has front and back allophones based on adjacent consonants and vowels in a rather complex fashion that I am not going to attempt to detail here.

Also, from a superficial analysis one might come to the conclusion that these front and back realizations are actually separate phonemes (as a consequence of that /st/ outside of final position can be realized as [sʲː] and /ʃtʃ/ can be realized as [ɕː], and in quick speech these are sometimes shortened to [sʲ] and [ɕ]), but I have come to the conclusion that such an analysis is mistaken.

As I mentioned above, /s/ has a front realization that is laminal dentialveolar and a back realization that is palatalized laminal alveolar.

/z/ has a front realization that is laminal alveolar and a back realization that is palatalized laminal alveolar.

/ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ/ all have front realizations that are laminal palatoalveolar and back realizations that are laminal alveolopalatal.

Note that all of the lenis sibilants have voiceless allophones, and /dʒ/ is always voiceless except when deliberately overpronounced (and yes, minimal pairs with /tʃ/ based on aspiration or preceding vowel length alone can be formed).

I don't mean to belittle you by saying this, but do you think you could give audio recordings of your speech? Particularly longer passages where you are less likely to be able to speak carefully. I suppose some of the details you normally give are common to phonetic transcriptions of (Great Lakes) American English, but a lot of the time i'm confused and wonder what is going on.