I would strongly disagree with him if that's what he's saying, but I took it as failing to create a handwriting system.
Modern Gothic
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Re: Modern Gothic
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!
Re: Modern Gothic
Just the script, not the language; I went for something runic instead.
(Runix? Could be an operating system in there somewhere. Hmmm...... er...... ᚱᚢᚾᛁᛱᛋ, anyone? )
"But he had reckoned without my narrative powers! With one bound I narrated myself up the wall and into the bathroom, where I transformed him into a freestanding sink unit.
We washed our hands of him, and lived happily ever after."
We washed our hands of him, and lived happily ever after."
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Man in Space
- Posts: 2434
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:05 am
Re: Modern Gothic
alice wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:34 pmJust the script, not the language; I went for something runic instead.
(Runix? Could be an operating system in there somewhere. Hmmm...... er...... ᚱᚢᚾᛁᛱᛋ, anyone? )
Code: Select all
ᛊᚢᛞᚩ ᚱᛗ -ᚱᚠ ᛡ/ --ᚿᚩ-ᛈᚱᛖᛊᛖᚱᚤ-*deh₃
Re: Modern Gothic
did some more thinking and playing around and i think i've settled on a series of three diacritics:
- s̃ z̃ t̃ d̃ þ̃ ð̃ h̃ r̃ l̃ ñ k̃ g̃ q̃ x̃
- gothic form resembles a mirrored tilde (derived from gothic <j>), romanized form is a regular tilde
- indicates palatalization
- when a cluster is palatalized, the diacritic stretches in length to cover the entire cluster (romanized as separate tildes on each character)
- ř ľ
- gothic and romanized forms resemble a haček (derived from gothic <z>)
- used on r and l when they are palatalized to /ʒ/ rather than to /j/
- if this character is the last in a palatalized cluster, a printed/typed text will show the regular palatalization diacritic over the preceding letter(s) and the haček diacritic over the r or l (which is how it will be romanized), while a handwritten text will generally combine the two, essentially as an elongated reverse tilde with an acute attached at the end
- ń
- gothic and romanized forms resembles an acute accent (derived from gothic <g>)
- used only on n to indicate /ŋ/ when not followed by /k g x ɣ/
Re: Modern Gothic
ok. so i took a look at [h] and [x] and finally got it all figured out. since [x] always descends from original /h/ and has always been written <h>, it retains the spelling <h>. the phone [h] is lost for centuries so the association between the letter and the sound is gone. the newly arisen [h], which comes from earlier [ɣ], gets a new letter.
but which letter? i think what makes the most sense is 𐍁 ("90") for new [h], so /ð/ is written 𐍊 ("900"). the actual gothic character used for /ð/ has changed, but its romanized transliteration remains <ð>
but how do we romanize 𐍁? this is tricky, especially when we remember it will often need to take a tilde in modern gothic. at first i was using <ⱨ>, with accented form <ⱨ̃>, but it's too easily confused with <h> and the accent doesn't reliably render correctly. so finally i took a look at modified forms of <g> rather than <h>, as the sound descends from [ɣ], and decided to use a yogh: <Ȝ ȝ Ȝ̃ ȝ̃>. so now the complete alphabet is:
it's not perfect but it works. now it's time to update my files
but which letter? i think what makes the most sense is 𐍁 ("90") for new [h], so /ð/ is written 𐍊 ("900"). the actual gothic character used for /ð/ has changed, but its romanized transliteration remains <ð>
but how do we romanize 𐍁? this is tricky, especially when we remember it will often need to take a tilde in modern gothic. at first i was using <ⱨ>, with accented form <ⱨ̃>, but it's too easily confused with <h> and the accent doesn't reliably render correctly. so finally i took a look at modified forms of <g> rather than <h>, as the sound descends from [ɣ], and decided to use a yogh: <Ȝ ȝ Ȝ̃ ȝ̃>. so now the complete alphabet is:
| gothic | 𐌰 | 𐌱 | 𐌲 | 𐌳 | 𐌴 | 𐌵 | 𐌶 | 𐌷 | 𐌸 | 𐌹 | 𐌺 | 𐌻 | 𐌼 | 𐌽 | 𐌾 | 𐌿 | 𐍀 | 𐍁 | 𐍂 | 𐍃 | 𐍄 | 𐍅 | 𐍆 | 𐍇 | 𐍈 | 𐍉 | 𐍊 |
| romanization | a | b | g | d | e | q | z | h | þ | i | k | l | m | n | j | u | p | ȝ | r | s | t | w | f | x | ƕ | o | ð |
| pronunciation (early modern) | a | b | g | d | e | k/g | z | x | þ | i | k | l | m | n | j | u | p | h | r | s | t | w | f | k/g | f | o | ð |
it's not perfect but it works. now it's time to update my files
Re: Modern Gothic
hmm, and actually, the reformers in early modern gothic would have made sure that /ŋ/ had its own letter. i think introducing <ń> at this time makes sense, though maybe at that stage the diacritic was more recognizable as a form of the handwritten <g> (much like early versions of the german umlaut resembled handwritten <e>). so i think they will include it in their alphabet—it's tempting to insert it after <n>, but given the use of letters as numerals i think they'd be more likely to stick it at the end where it doesn't mess the rest of it up. so the early modern alphabet is as above, but with <ń> at the end. in this period they use it for every instance of /ŋ/ regardless of environment
by the modern period, the introduction of the other diacritics leads them to the stop considering the accented forms as separate letters and just as variants of the existing letters. so <ń> is removed from the recited alphabet. it is also not used when followed by /k g x/
when alphabetizing, the accented forms should be sorted as the base letter, and only if there are words that are otherwise identical is a distinction made. in that event, the bare letter comes first, followed by the form with the acute or haček (which are never found on the same letter—the former only appears on <n> and the latter only on <l> and <r>), followed by the form with the tilde. this order i'm basing on the origins of the accents as letters (g and z both come before j in the gothic alphabet). so the following group of nonsense words would be sorted in this order:
all right, i think that's everything for now? i feel like there might something i'm forgetting but i think that's it
by the modern period, the introduction of the other diacritics leads them to the stop considering the accented forms as separate letters and just as variants of the existing letters. so <ń> is removed from the recited alphabet. it is also not used when followed by /k g x/
when alphabetizing, the accented forms should be sorted as the base letter, and only if there are words that are otherwise identical is a distinction made. in that event, the bare letter comes first, followed by the form with the acute or haček (which are never found on the same letter—the former only appears on <n> and the latter only on <l> and <r>), followed by the form with the tilde. this order i'm basing on the origins of the accents as letters (g and z both come before j in the gothic alphabet). so the following group of nonsense words would be sorted in this order:
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Re: Modern Gothic
pretty frustrating not having access to my regular dictionary, so while i'm in limbo i've been working on trying to fill out the dictionaries on anthologica. there are three, one for each of the three "phases", so i'm going to put an index to them here in this post, grouped together thematically. i may or may not keep this updated as i add entries or make changes, not sure yet. n.e. indicates that the word does (or will) exist but that there's no entry on anthologica. the colors indicate which stage of gothic the word is from: middle gothic, early modern gothic, modern gothic. entries with asterisks indicate irregular inflections/conjugations (mostly putting this here because i think they're fun)
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Last edited by Emily on Fri Apr 10, 2026 6:52 pm, edited 17 times in total.
Re: Modern Gothic
i'm still going through and trying to update documentation and streamline the disparities between my computer notes and my anthologica notes that grew out of having computer troubles for several months, so i haven't really been able to develop anything new, other than some vocabulary (btw the previous post is up to date as far as what's posted in the anthologica dictionaries). but i did write out a list of words in my modern gothic alphabet, which i figured i'd post. it's not sentences (still have way too much grammar work to do before i can do that in any real seriousness), it's just a list of all the headwords from the online modern dictionary in gothic alphabetical order. of note are the new form of the lowercase <k>, and the ligatures for <ja> and <ȝa> (visible in "þ̃ijads" at the end of the 12th line and "ȝ̃amlews" in the 5th line from the bottom, both in the left half of the page).
image:
transcription:
image:
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Re: Modern Gothic
That looks really nice written by hand!
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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WeepingElf
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Re: Modern Gothic
It does! It also reminds me of a fancy typeface of the Latin alphabet I made as a teenage boy (also handwritten; unfortunately, I don't have an image at hand, let alone in digital form).
Re: Modern Gothic
It's really good. It looks like it was done by a well-trained scribe (which of course it was, but you know what I mean).
"But he had reckoned without my narrative powers! With one bound I narrated myself up the wall and into the bathroom, where I transformed him into a freestanding sink unit.
We washed our hands of him, and lived happily ever after."
We washed our hands of him, and lived happily ever after."
Re: Modern Gothic
thank you! it's sad that a conlang in a fictional script is more legible than my actual handwriting 
next orders of business irt the writing system are to make fonts and to figure out cursive forms (both of which have started haphazard development but need more concentrated effort)
next orders of business irt the writing system are to make fonts and to figure out cursive forms (both of which have started haphazard development but need more concentrated effort)Re: Modern Gothic
I have this problem too, and I'm sure other ZBBers do as well.
"But he had reckoned without my narrative powers! With one bound I narrated myself up the wall and into the bathroom, where I transformed him into a freestanding sink unit.
We washed our hands of him, and lived happily ever after."
We washed our hands of him, and lived happily ever after."
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WeepingElf
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Re: Modern Gothic
I think this is because we tend to trace our conscripts carefully, while everyday handwriting, e.g. in telephone call notes or shopping lists, is fast and casual.
Re: Modern Gothic
This would explain why my wife often gets me to write Thai script addresses on envelopes.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 12, 2026 3:10 am I think this is because we tend to trace our conscripts carefully, while everyday handwriting, e.g. in telephone call notes or shopping lists, is fast and casual.
Re: Modern Gothic
ok i got version 1.0 of a font finished minutes before my highlogic trial ran out
) but it's got all the basics so i'm fine with it for now. below is a typed version of the handwritten word list from a couple of posts ago:
all right now i just need to make a set of sca rules to convert between regular transcription and the font and we'll be good to go
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- line 1 is the gothic alphabet in all caps: <ABGDEQZHÞIKLMNJUPȜRSTWFXǶOÐ>
- line 2 is the alphabet in all lowercase: <abgdeqzhþiklmnjupȝrstwfxƕoð>, followed by the ligatures <ja ȝa ȝ̃a>
- line 3 is all the individual letters that have diacritics: <Ïï G̃D̃Q̃Z̃H̃Þ̃K̃L̃ÑȜ̃R̃S̃T̃X̃Ð̃g̃d̃q̃z̃h̃þ̃k̃l̃ñȝ̃r̃s̃t̃x̃ð̃ ĽŘľř Ńń>
- line 4 is some precomposed di- and trigraphs with tildes on them, in all caps: <S̃T̃ S̃K̃ S̃T̃R̃ S̃K̃R̃ S̃T̃L̃ S̃K̃L̃ Z̃D̃ Z̃G̃ Z̃D̃R̃ Z̃G̃R̃ Z̃D̃L Z̃G̃L̃> (these aren't all the possible tilde clusters, of course, but they're probably the most common)
- line 5 is the same precomposed characters in lowercase, followed by five sets of tildes in varying lengths (all five lengths are encoded as both regular spacing characters and 0-width characters for placing on the previous letter; the last three pairs can also be placed between two characters to cover the letters on both sides; the last two pairs can be placed between two letters to cover three characters, with the left portion covering the previous letter and the right portion covering the subsequent two letters)
- line 6 is punctuation, as well as a couple of western characters copied from arial. the one that looks like a colon is a period (full stop) in all three phases, the one that looks like a period is the equivalent of a comma, and the one that looks like a semicolon is the equivalent of a question mark. the upper and middle dots are variants of the period found in the middle gothic period (the middle dot continues into early modern gothic). the « guillemets » are used for quotation marks in areas where the dominant national alphabet is cyrillic, and the „german-style quotation marks‟ are used in areas using the latin alphabet. three lengths of dashes are shown, as gothic has no set length, and parentheses are shown as well, as they are uncommon but do sometimes get used. the western numerals and question marks are taken from arial to demonstrate their "otherness" in gothic texts; modern gothic will use western numerals but prefers gothic numerals, and the western question mark appeared in some 19th century printed texts but failed to successfully replace the inherited gothic question mark
) but it's got all the basics so i'm fine with it for now. below is a typed version of the handwritten word list from a couple of posts ago:
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WeepingElf
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Re: Modern Gothic
That rocks!
Re: Modern Gothic
Very nice!
(Though I still think the ⟨þ⟩ feels out of place with that loop above the x-height…)
(Though I still think the ⟨þ⟩ feels out of place with that loop above the x-height…)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Re: Modern Gothic
I am also enjoying the font.
(On þ, I think it's naturalistic out of placeness. It still makes use of the guidelines of the rest of the script, and it still looks Gothic)
(On þ, I think it's naturalistic out of placeness. It still makes use of the guidelines of the rest of the script, and it still looks Gothic)
LZ – Lēri Ziwi
PS – Proto Sāzlakuic (ancestor of LZ)
PRk – Proto Rākēwuic
XI – Xú Iạlan
VN – verbal noun
SUP – supine
DIRECT – verbal directional
My language stuff
PS – Proto Sāzlakuic (ancestor of LZ)
PRk – Proto Rākēwuic
XI – Xú Iạlan
VN – verbal noun
SUP – supine
DIRECT – verbal directional
My language stuff
Re: Modern Gothic
Nice!
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.