Heláin

[Leilis]

I'm chiming in late, and don't have much to say, except that it looks good. I love diachronic conlanging like this.

Thanks for commenting! I'm starting fifteen years late on the proto-lang so it's a bit hard to get it all to work with the developed lexicon.

[Leilis]

Teigla Sig
Let the Spheres Glorify

teiglad sig e ’lv’ adhaid elfis il alle dette:
aistwín mur, allún mur, annuneru, ecra cwarin,
seim, ava, teler, siurr’ artalama; cleisaman mu,
iscamm mu seir iŋ eve, cussenad annimirtha.

sky be.glorified.IMP ABS.M whole-VOC praise-OBL.PL kind-OBL.F LOC.F god-ABS.M holy-ABS.M
dawn 2-VOC.M day 2-VOC.M sunset=evening-VOC.M fire-VOC.M three-MUL
shine.IMP sun-VOC.M first-VOC.M bright-VOC.M high=more purity.ABS.F=go.berserk.IMP 2-ABS.M
be.revived-PERF 2-ABS.M only-VOC.M now which-ABS.M heart.VOC.M=strong be.armed-PASS.PTCP-VOC.M

Let the whole sky, with praises according to [each] kind, glorify the holy god:
you dawn, you day, evening sunset, threefold fire,
shine, O sun, first, brightest by far; make yourself zealous in purity,
whom the One has now revived, O strong heart armed for war.

teiglen sig e ’lv’ adhaid elfis il alle dette:
istan mu, amforós, teiranéin, endineia;
istadant av mu atha llebrenis, f’istadannus,
agra uros, iŋ coréiv, finnamet cunna, issu.

earth be.glorified.IMP ABS.M whole-VOC praise-OBL.PL kind-OBL.F LOC.F god-ABS.M holy-ABS.M
go.up.IMP 2-ABS.M great=sea.VOC salt=road.VOC be.loud.INF-ABS=water.VOC
be.strengthened-PERF for 2-ABS.M mighty-VOC his=hand-OBL.F and=be.strengthened-IPRF
hell-VOC darkness-GEN.M now shiny.blue.green.VOC eye-ABS.PL-lacking.VOC deepness-VOC wave-VOC

Let the whole earth, with praises according to [each] kind, glorify the holy god:
rise up [to worship], O great sea, salt-road, loud water,
for the Almighty has strengthened you by His hand, and strengthens,
O hell of darkness, now shining-blue-green, eyeless depth[s], wave[s].

teiglad sig e ’lv’ adhaid elfis il alle dette:
farren e ’ntur, mel f’ avai melien, anna cwera,
aiyes lelinnen ev’ el an-taláv indivanne,
ellan ithiseid: bas isthén taléid ista seimma.

sky be.glorified.IMP ABS.M whole-VOC praise-OBL.PL kind-OBL.F LOC.F god-ABS.M holy-ABS.M
be.attended-AOR ABS.M whoso-VOC.M star.VOC and light-VOC.F all.stars.VOC.F path-VOC white-VOC
speak.INF-OBL PAS-be.heard-AOR which-ABS.M LOC.M go=before-CONJ right-ABS.F=test-ABS.M
shieldbearer.VOC flame-ABS.F=arrow-OBL.PL shout.IMP truth.ABS.F primordial.ABS.F again shining-VOC

Let the whole sky, with praises according to [each] kind, glorify the holy god:
whoso obeys Him, star or light [which is] the host of stars, the white path,
according to the word which was heard before the testing of righteousness,
shieldbearer with fire-arrows: cry out the primordial truth when again you shine.

teiglen sig e ’lv’ adhaid elfis il alle dette:
cir fi mena, corfinora, talthenis semma f’avra,
nen derre, halgad mur halgenula, clarra lussa,
anthis, thedis, lindenis fleis im, andarienna.

earth be.glorified.IMP ABS.M whole-VOC praise-OBL.PL kind-OBL.F LOC.F god-ABS.M holy-ABS.M
rift.VOC and valley-VOC grovel-ACT.PTCP.VOC.PL trust-INF.OBL.F hill-VOC and=mountain-VOC
be.served.IMP be.rendered-ACT.PTCP.ABS.M gift-VOC-great 2-VOC.M gift-ABS.M=lap-VOC mother-VOC green-VOC
fertile-OBL.F forest-OBL.F meadow-OBL.F near.water-OBL.F INSTR.F all.land-VOC.PL

Let the whole earth, with praises according to [each] kind, glorify the holy god:
rift and valley in humility, with trust hill and mountain,
serve the Giver, you great gift, gift-bearing, green birth-mother,
with fertile land, with forest, with watered meadow, all land everywhere.

teigla sig e lleasterien detis serre dette:
aiar elfier, aiá, beth serithe llebelois em,
nor fi riadh, iŋga, sera, bennéid fi hwella villa,
sollen av teigl’ al sigis ll’em iŋ sien: sig alle.

sphere-VOC.PL be.glorified.IMP ABS.M his=all.great.work.VOC.F be.hallowed-INF.OBL.F be.made-ACT.PTCP-ABS.M holy-ABS.M
speak-ACT.PTCP.VOC.M each-VOC.M speak.IMP people be.made-PASS.PTCP-ABS.M his=benefit-OBL.M INSTR.M
man and woman young-VOC.M maiden-VOC.F nursling-VOC.F and old-VOC.M long-VOC.M
be.filled-AOR for sphere-ABS.PL god.VOC.M glory-OBL.F his=INSTR.M now forever be.glorified.IMP god-ABS.M

Let the spheres, all His masterwork, fitly glorify the holy Maker:
each rational being, speak, the people made by His blessing,
man and woman, youth [and] maiden, nursling and the very aged,
for the god fills the spheres with His glory, now [and] forever: glorify the god.

*****

My best guess is that this poem took at least 10 hours over the last month (started on 1 Feb). It has very few new words: elva 'whole' (cf. elfa 'kind, sort' and elfier 'each'), avra 'mountain', theda 'forest' (< PH *tʰæ > 'be', 'stand', 'sit' + PH *tʰa 'property'?), and fleia 'near water, supplied with water' (OH *fil-eia 'through-water'). Also, for the first stanza, I invented two 'dialectical variants' to fit the metre, cussen (normally cusen) and the ending -irtha; the latter was going to be a variant of the passive participle ending -itha, but I use -itha later in the poem, so it'll be a weird, rare reflexive participle (active -ir + passive -itha).

Notes:
3 saman, here rendered ‘make zealous’, refers to a kind of fury or madness in battle; a samath is a berserker.
4 cussenad annimirtha 'strong heart, armed for war': in my conworld history, some seven centuries after this hymn was written, Vannos, grandson of Cusenad I of Naven, takes the regnal name Cusenad II and is acclaimed as 'Cusenad Annimirtha', i.e. 'Cusenad Armed-for-War'.
11 indivanna lit. ‘righteousness-test’ is a mythical battle after the creation of the universe; we might say 'before the Fall'.
12 ellan ‘shieldbearer’ refers to a kind of divine servant or angel; ‘fire-arrow’ = comet; taléid ‘primordial’ could also refer to the ellan (and stars). ista seimma lit. ‘again shining’; seimma also means ‘metal’ or ‘metallic’.
14 corfinora ‘humble’ and talthenis ‘with trust/faith’ are etymologically ‘under-looker’ and ‘over-standing’.
15 derre ‘giver’ is specifically a superior who gives inferiors their due (reward or punishment). [h]alga ‘gift’, outside of some compounds, refers to land or produce set aside for sacred use: here land is the ‘great gift’, which produces other gifts (like grain or wine).
16 andarienna pl. < andarien = andarián col. < *andari > anda ‘land’: a collective turned into a plural!
17 lleasterien should be ll’asterien by normal elision rules (cf. l. 20 ll’em).
18 aiar, here rendered ‘rational being’, is lit. ‘speaker’. aiá is metrically weird: it’s Ls, but a short final stress is very awkward, so -á is allowed to ‘steal’ length from ai- (because there’s no consonant between them), and the word is pronounced as sL.

[sasasha]

I find both the language and the poetry very beautiful.

[Leilis]

I find both the language and the poetry very beautiful.

eladaiye!
thank-INF.ABS
Thanks!

(editing to add)

One of my goals is to make the language beautiful to me, so it makes me happy when other people find it beautiful, too. I think my favourite bit from this poem is l. 2, aistwín mur, allún mur, annuneru, ecra cwarin 'you dawn, you day, sunset-evening, fire threefold', although maybe just for the meaning because ecra cwarin is slightly tonguetwistery.

[bradrn]

I do find it phonaesthetically beautiful, too.

The only minor thing which throws me off is the use of ⟨c⟩, which I instinctively read as some kind of palatal — especially since you also use ⟨ŋ⟩, which of course comes straight from IPA. I’d suggest either changing ⟨c⟩ to ⟨k⟩, or lean into the European-ness by substituting ⟨n(g)⟩ for /ŋ/ and possibly ⟨qu⟩ for /kw/ too (like in Tolkien’s Quenya). That is, taking a previous post of yours as an example, either:

elaŋk i dhellu sián iŋ untala […] ammus aiyelfi Heláin avanned kwataŋged eóll’ u talama evian

or:

elanc i dhellu sián ing untala […] ammus aiyelfi Heláin avanned quatangged eóll’ u talama evian

(I prefer the latter option, I think, though ⟨ngg⟩ is awkward. Maybe quantan’ged?)

[Leilis]

The only minor thing which throws me off is the use of ⟨c⟩, which I instinctively read as some kind of palatal — especially since you also use ⟨ŋ⟩, which of course comes straight from IPA. I’d suggest either changing ⟨c⟩ to ⟨k⟩, or lean into the European-ness by substituting ⟨n(g)⟩ for /ŋ/ and possibly ⟨qu⟩ for /kw/ too (like in Tolkien’s Quenya). That is, taking a previous post of yours as an example, either:

elaŋk i dhellu sián iŋ untala […] ammus aiyelfi Heláin avanned kwataŋged eóll’ u talama evian

or:

elanc i dhellu sián ing untala […] ammus aiyelfi Heláin avanned quatangged eóll’ u talama evian

(I prefer the latter option, I think, though ⟨ngg⟩ is awkward. Maybe quantan’ged?)

I often think about how I don't like having to use ŋ (especially, having to use different shortcuts in different programmes, or copy-and-paste!). Because of sandhi, /nk/ and /ng/ aren't possible, so I could just have nc and ng represent /ŋk/ and /ŋg/.

Lone ŋ is trickier. Outside of my vocab-revision list (which doesn't matter because I can scrap those words), it's only in iŋ 'now' and ŋun 'be given (freely)' and their derivatives. Realistically, ŋun should become nun or gun (maybe both, in different dialects); neither of those is already a word.

I could, of course, write iŋ as ing at the ends of words (ing 'now', coring 'hereafter', mining 'soon', taling 'before now', all a bit ugly but not awful), but derivatives iŋáv 'as soon as', iŋel 'renew', iŋallún 'today', iŋurrún 'tonight' would be ambiguous -- we can't tell if ingel is /ɪŋgɛl/ or /ɪŋɛl/ (and I really don't want it left ambiguous). On the other hand, it seems unreasonable to keep the absolute worst feature of my romanisation because of literally four words. Is spelling the syllable /ɪŋ/ (when not followed by /k/ or /g/) as something like yn better or worse than spelling it iŋ?

I don't think hw / cw / tw will change -- I like the slight Old-Englishy feel too much.

[bradrn]

I could, of course, write iŋ as ing at the ends of words (ing 'now', coring 'hereafter', mining 'soon', taling 'before now', all a bit ugly but not awful), but derivatives iŋáv 'as soon as', iŋel 'renew', iŋallún 'today', iŋurrún 'tonight' would be ambiguous -- we can't tell if ingel is /ɪŋgɛl/ or /ɪŋɛl/ (and I really don't want it left ambiguous). On the other hand, it seems unreasonable to keep the absolute worst feature of my romanisation because of literally four words. Is spelling the syllable /ɪŋ/ (when not followed by /k/ or /g/) as something like yn better or worse than spelling it iŋ?

If you want an Old-Englishy feel, how about ⟨ṅ⟩? That would give ingel /ɪŋɡɛl/ vs iṅel /ɪŋɛl/, or the latter could even be iṅgel if you want.

I don't think hw / cw / tw will change -- I like the slight Old-Englishy feel too much.

I guess so… but then why ⟨th dh⟩ rather than ⟨þ ð⟩? Or do you feel that would be too blatant? All I know is that ⟨cw⟩ was confusing me, and ⟨c⟩ is just a confusing letter in general.

[sasasha]

At the risk of sounding like I'm quoting a Bridget Jones film, although I think bradrn’s suggestions have their own charms (especially the 2nd), I also like your orthography just as it is. (With the possible exception that <nc ng> might feel more efficient than <ŋc ŋg>.)

To me, <ŋ> in the mix of the digraphs is distinctive and interesting, and <c> is fine. Anyone interested enough to try pronouncing your language will take the time to work out what value you want.

[bradrn]

We do have a tendency towards nitpicking here, yes. (I guess less a tendency and more an obsession…)

[Leilis]

I think I've now been convinced to use <nc ng> instead of <ŋc ŋg>. I use <th dh> because they're easier to type and read than <þ ð> (anyone who doesn't know that <dh> = voiced <th> can still slaughter it to get something in the dental/alveolar area). I like <c> (and <cw>) and have no plans to change them, but I don't have the same attachment to <ŋ> and have really only used it because the alternatives seem clunky or ambiguous.

Edit: My local Tolkien expert recommends <ñ>, following Quenya.

[sasasha]

Edit: My local Tolkien expert recommends <ñ>, following Quenya.

I think that would work well, if you don’t actually like <ŋ>.

[Leilis]

Since romanisation has come up ...

I mentioned weirdness with <l> early on. The blends t + l/r are realised as /tɬ/, but I've romanised it as <tr> to make it look less alien. Should I just use <tl>? It's somewhat rare; I don't think it shows up in either poem that I've posted here, for instance. Looking at my lexicon:

astrian / astlian ('female friend' < asti 'love' + rian 'woman')
trecaia / tlecaia ('libation' < ter 'door' + *caia 'cup')
citra / citla ('finger' < citir 'counter')
tris / tlis ('frost', ultimately < teir 'salt' + issu 'wave')
trispa / tlispa ('pickle', also < teir 'salt')
tras / tlas ('be measured' < PH *stæl-as 'over-edge')

My latest notes say that they're written with the conscript letter usually romanised as <l>.

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

Since romanisation has come up ...

I mentioned weirdness with <l> early on. The blends t + l/r are realised as /tɬ/, but I've romanised it as <tr> to make it look less alien. Should I just use <tl>? It's somewhat rare; I don't think it shows up in either poem that I've posted here, for instance. Looking at my lexicon:

astrian / astlian ('female friend' < asti 'love' + rian 'woman')
trecaia / tlecaia ('libation' < ter 'door' + *caia 'cup')
citra / citla ('finger' < citir 'counter')
tris / tlis ('frost', ultimately < teir 'salt' + issu 'wave')
trispa / tlispa ('pickle', also < teir 'salt')
tras / tlas ('be measured' < PH *stæl-as 'over-edge')

My latest notes say that they're written with the conscript letter usually romanised as <l>.

I would say it entirely depends on whether you want it to be effective or aesthetic. I personally lean towards aesthetic when romanizing, so I like the look of <tr>, but if you want people to better understand how to pronounce it then <tl> would work far better. then again, back to what sasasha said, anyone who's actually like to bother with proper pronunciation will learn the difference on their own.

[bradrn]

I think I’d prefer ⟨tl⟩.

[Travis B.]

I think I’d prefer ⟨tl⟩.

Same here -- ⟨tr⟩ would confuse me.

[quinterbeck]

<tl> is definitely more transparent, although I quite like the quirky nature of having <tr> for /tɬ/, especially if you can come up with an explanation for it. Aesthetically, I don't think either is better in context, they just have different flavours.

As others have said, this really is a lovely conlang!

[Travis B.]

<tl> is definitely more transparent, although I quite like the quirky nature of having <tr> for /tɬ/, especially if you can come up with an explanation for it. Aesthetically, I don't think either is better in context, they just have different flavours.

As others have said, this really is a lovely conlang!

One thing I'd propose is having both ⟨tl⟩ and ⟨tr⟩ which are kept distinct in etymological spelling even though they are synchronically merged to /tɬ/.

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

One thing I'd propose is having both ⟨tl⟩ and ⟨tr⟩ which are kept distinct in etymological spelling even though they are synchronically merged to /tɬ/.

this to me may be taking it a bit too far. while it can be quite aesthetically pleasing to have, it adds to the confusion beyond a bit more than I like. it also reminds me of the ⟨c k qu⟩ situation in french, and we all know it's a bad thing when a conlang reminds you of french¹.

¹ I'm joking, obviously.

[Leilis]

The explanation for <tr> is that almost every <tr> or <tl> (however I decide to romanise it) etymologically comes from an Old Heláin <r> -- the only one that might not is <tras> (<tlas>?), perhaps from PH *stælas (I'm not sure what the OH was).

[Travis B.]

The explanation for <tr> is that almost every <tr> or <tl> (however I decide to romanise it) etymologically comes from an Old Heláin <r> -- the only one that might not is <tras> (<tlas>?), perhaps from PH *stælas (I'm not sure what the OH was).

That's a good reason to use <tr> IMO.