Loanwords in (P)IE

[Travis B.]

I don't think it's from Semitic because I don't think Semitic and Indo-European were spoken anywhere near enough to each other for them to happen (and saying "Wanderwort" requires showing the links in the chain or you're just saying "it was loaned through Old High Martian") but you may be onto something in connecting Germanic *sumaraz and Celtic *samos with Greek ἦμᾰρ and Armenian awr which are otherwise isolated and a bit strange. (The competing hypothesis is that "summer" is related to "semi-", because the Sanskrit cognate can mean "half-year".)

I'm not sure if this word was borrowed from Semitic, but the connection seems likely to me.

On the other hand, there're quite a lot of proposed loanwords from this source, likely through the languages spoken by the farmers who colonized Europe in the Neolithic. Some of them have been borrowed more than once, thus generating doublets like the one I quoted before: *ghebhōl- (kephalê 'head', English gable) ~ *kapōl-o- (Old English hafola, Sanskrit kapá:la-), from Semitic *gbl- 'mountain; boundary, border' (Arabic ʒabal 'mountain'), with a straightforawrd semantic shift.

Please actually substantiate such supposed "Wanderwörter" rather than finding words that look vaguely similar and declaring "hey! that's a Wanderwort"? Going from 'mountain' to 'head' is quite a jump unto itself.

I already took you to school over this before, and the fact you're still peddling it is frankly damning. "Apple" is solidly Indo-European, deriving from a metathesised variant of *meh₂l- (*meh₂l- > *h₂eml- > *h₂ebl-) motivated by association with h₂em-ro- "sour". Hittite šamalu- is s-mobile.[/b]

I disagree. Hittite šamalu- is clearly related to the 'summer' words and this *(s)meh₂l- is a desperate attempt to keep the the ass of the std PIE model guarded, ignoring external evidence. But it's clear there wre several metathesis involved from the original *HVmV-lV/HVmV-nV: *(V)mHVlV/(V)mHVnV (Paleo-European *abVl- < *amHVlV? and NEC *mhalV/mhanV-) > *mVHlV (IE *mah₂l-o-).

Show some real evidence for once (and "reconstructions" full of V are a good sign that one is wrong).

Your Uralic *omena/omVrV is "Starostinian gibberish formed by smashing together Proto-Finnic *omëna and Hungarian alma (apparently assuming a metathesis from *omra with a magic vanishing vowel)"; both the Proto-Finnic and Hungarian words are Indo-European loans.

I think you suffer of IE-centrism, as the distribution of these words points to a Wanderwort which spread to several languages, including IE, but it didn't originate there.

To you everything is a Wanderwort. Can you contemplate that the majority of IE roots, especially well-established ones like this one, are not Wanderwörter? Also, loans from IE daughters into Uralic are a very well-substantiated phenomenon that need not be dismissed as "Wanderwörter".

The only reason you mention Basque is because madari is superficially appealing, but that's a prefix ma-; udare is clearly and obviously nothing to do with IE *meh₂- "grow, increase".

This prefix has no etymological value: uda < *HVmV and udare, udari < *HVmV-lV, with the nasal replaced by a prosthetic d, but it's kept in um(a)o < *HVmV-nV.

Positing m > d without good reason is not a very strong argument. Unless you can show this was a common pattern in loans from IE to Basque there is no value in this argument.

[Talskubilos]

On the other hand, there're quite a lot of proposed loanwords from this source, likely through the languages spoken by the farmers who colonized Europe in the Neolithic. Some of them have been borrowed more than once, thus generating doublets like the one I quoted before: *ghebhōl- (kephalê 'head', English gable) ~ *kapōl-o- (Old English hafola, Sanskrit kapá:la-), from Semitic *gbl- 'mountain; boundary, border' (Arabic ʒabal 'mountain'), with a straightforawrd semantic shift.

Please actually substantiate such supposed "Wanderwörter" rather than finding words that look vaguely similar and declaring "hey! that's a Wanderwort"? Going from 'mountain' to 'head' is quite a jump unto itself.

Not really, because the head is at the top of body. But this doesn't look as Wanderwort, bur rather as loanword, either from Semitic itself or a third source.

To you everything is a Wanderwort. Can you contemplate that the majority of IE roots, especially well-established ones like this one, are not Wanderwörter?

I don't think this is an example of a "well-established IE root", and The apple tree is originary of Kurdistan, so the word must have originated in that region. IMHO, among the +2,000 lexical items reconstucted for PIE there are many loanwords and Wanderwörter.

Also, loans from IE daughters into Uralic are a very well-substantiated phenomenon that need not be dismissed as "Wanderwörter".

Yes, they are, but this doesn't like to be the case.

This prefix has no etymological value: uda < *HVmV and udare, udari < *HVmV-lV, with the nasal replaced by a prosthetic d, but it's kept in um(a)o < *HVmV-nV.

Positing m > d without good reason is not a very strong argument. Unless you can show this was a common pattern in loans from IE to Basque there is no value in this argument.

In this case the source isn't IE, but I can show you an example: Greek kamára 'vault' could be derived from *kama-rV '(something) curved', which would give the Basque doublet adar 'horn' and abar 'branch'. As Paleo-Basque had no *m in its inventory, this consonant evolved into something else of simply disappeared. In the case of uda, udare, udari, it was replaced with a prosthetic /d/, while um(a)o kept it (or regenerated it) because of the following nasal.

[Travis B.]

To you everything is a Wanderwort. Can you contemplate that the majority of IE roots, especially well-established ones like this one, are not Wanderwörter?

I don't think this is an example of a "well-established IE root", and The apple tree is originary of Kurdistan, so the word must have originated in that region. IMHO, among the +2,000 lexical items reconstucted for PIE there are many loanwords and Wanderwörter.

Just so you know, in older IE 'apple' (e.g. Middle English) could have the meaning of 'fruit' in a general fashion rather than the more specific meaning it has today in modern English.

[Talskubilos]

Just so you know, in older IE 'apple' (e.g. Middle English) could have the meaning of 'fruit' in a general fashion rather than the more specific meaning it has today in modern English.

Thank you for the information.

[Travis B.]

Just so you know, in older IE 'apple' (e.g. Middle English) could have the meaning of 'fruit' in a general fashion rather than the more specific meaning it has today in modern English.

Thank you for the information.

One example of this is ME appel of paradis, which in ModE is 'banana'.

[Talskubilos]

One example of this is ME appel of paradis, which in ModE is 'banana'.

Or pomme de terre 'potato' in French and pomodoro 'tomato' in Italian.

[Travis B.]

One example of this is ME appel of paradis, which in ModE is 'banana'.

Or pomme de terre 'potato' in French and pomodoro 'tomato' in Italian.

This sense of apple is also preserved by ModE pineapple.

[Talskubilos]

One example of this is ME appel of paradis, which in ModE is 'banana'.

Or pomme de terre 'potato' in French and pomodoro 'tomato' in Italian.

This sense of apple is also preserved by ModE pineapple.

Or German Apfelsine 'orange'.

[Raphael]

Or pomme de terre 'potato' in French and pomodoro 'tomato' in Italian.

This sense of apple is also preserved by ModE pineapple.

Or German Apfelsine 'orange'.

Hah! Somehow I never thought of Apfelsine as Apfel's wife or sister, but now that you mention it...

[Talskubilos]

There're many names of fruits with no IE etymology. For example Greek ákherdos, akhrás ‘wild pear tree’ has correspondences in Catalan gerd, gerdó, jordó, Gascon jordon, Aragonese chordón, churdón 'raspberry', but apparently not elsewhere.

Also Basque gurbitz (with several dialectal variants) ~ Italian corbezzolo 'strawberry tree' could be more distantly related to French corme 'service berry' and Greek kómaros 'straberry tree' (with metathesis).

[zompist]

The apple tree is originary of Kurdistan, so the word must have originated in that region.

Just a reaction to this silly claim.

Here are some Eurasian words for apple: apple, mela, manzana, alma, tufaha, ringo, píng, seb, õun, vashli, quả táo, ku shu.

They're not all related; it's just not true that a plant has to keep the name given to it where it was first cultivated.

[bradrn]

Here are some Eurasian words for apple: apple, mela, manzana, alma, tufaha, ringo, píng, seb, õun, vashli, quả táo, ku shu.

Some pedantic nitpicks: tufaha appears to be Swahili, which isn’t Eurasian. Indic seb appears to originate in Proto-Iranian, from the same region Talskubilos mentioned. Similarly Estonian õun may be an Iranian loan.

(The overall point, of course, remains completely correct. Spanish manzana and French pomme alone would demonstrate that blatant innovations are possible. To say nothing of the East Asian words.)

[zompist]

Here are some Eurasian words for apple: apple, mela, manzana, alma, tufaha, ringo, píng, seb, õun, vashli, quả táo, ku shu.

Some pedantic nitpicks: tufaha appears to be Swahili, which isn’t Eurasian. Indic seb appears to originate in Proto-Iranian, from the same region Talskubilos mentioned. Similarly Estonian õun may be an Iranian loan.

I did look at a different language than I intended, but there's no reason not to look at Africa; it just reinforces the point that borrowed fruits don't keep their names like a license plate that can't be removed. (And one of those words might of course have come from the original cultivators. Or the original name might be lost.)

(The overall point, of course, remains completely correct. Spanish manzana and French pomme alone would demonstrate that blatant innovations are possible. To say nothing of the East Asian words.)

[Talskubilos]

The apple tree is originary of Kurdistan, so the word must have originated in that region.

Just a reaction to this silly claim. Here are some Eurasian words for apple: apple, mela, manzana, alma, tufaha, ringo, píng, seb, õun, vashli, quả táo, ku shu. They're not all related; it's just not true that a plant has to keep the name given to it where it was first cultivated.

Although I regard "Proto-Nostratic" as a source of Wanderwörter rather than a mother tongue of several language families, Bomhard placed it in the Tagros-Zagros mountains area, which includes Kurdistan.

[bradrn]

The apple tree is originary of Kurdistan, so the word must have originated in that region.

Just a reaction to this silly claim. Here are some Eurasian words for apple: apple, mela, manzana, alma, tufaha, ringo, píng, seb, õun, vashli, quả táo, ku shu. They're not all related; it's just not true that a plant has to keep the name given to it where it was first cultivated.

Although I regard "Proto-Nostratic" as a source of Wanderwörter rather than a mother tongue of several language families, Bomhard placed it in the Tagros-Zagros mountains area, which includes Kurdistan.

This completely ignores what zompist (and I) said though.

[WeepingElf]

Just a reaction to this silly claim. Here are some Eurasian words for apple: apple, mela, manzana, alma, tufaha, ringo, píng, seb, õun, vashli, quả táo, ku shu. They're not all related; it's just not true that a plant has to keep the name given to it where it was first cultivated.

Although I regard "Proto-Nostratic" as a source of Wanderwörter rather than a mother tongue of several language families, Bomhard placed it in the Tagros-Zagros mountains area, which includes Kurdistan.

This completely ignores what zompist (and I) said though.

As he usually does - hence, I decided to refrain from commenting on his fancies (I admit that I "broke that promise" yesterday, when it seemed to me as if he was attributing one of his spurious etymologies to two highly respectable scholars - which turned out to be a combined misunderstanding by him and me). It's futile.

[Talskubilos]

As he usually does - hence, I decided to refrain from commenting on his fancies (I admit that I "broke that promise" yesterday, when it seemed to me as if he was attributing one of his spurious etymologies to two highly respectable scholars - which turned out to be a combined misunderstanding by him and me). It's futile.

Not spurious and not mine.

[Talskubilos]

Although I regard "Proto-Nostratic" as a source of Wanderwörter rather than a mother tongue of several language families, Bomhard placed it in the Tagros-Zagros mountains area, which includes Kurdistan.

This completely ignores what zompist (and I) said though.

As this word can be found in IE (in 3 different forms, despite attemps to unifiy them), Uralic and Basque (where it shited to 'pear'), with correspondences in NEC and Semitic: 'warm (season)' > '(ripe) fruit', I've labelled as a "Nostratic" (with my idiosyncratic use of the term) Wanderwort.

[WeepingElf]

As he usually does - hence, I decided to refrain from commenting on his fancies (I admit that I "broke that promise" yesterday, when it seemed to me as if he was attributing one of his spurious etymologies to two highly respectable scholars - which turned out to be a combined misunderstanding by him and me). It's futile.

Not spurious and not mine.

As I said, a misunderstanding.

[Talskubilos]

As he usually does - hence, I decided to refrain from commenting on his fancies (I admit that I "broke that promise" yesterday, when it seemed to me as if he was attributing one of his spurious etymologies to two highly respectable scholars - which turned out to be a combined misunderstanding by him and me). It's futile.

Not spurious and not mine.

As I said, a misunderstanding.

OK. BTW, I'm revisiting the Paleo-European languages thread, because you posted some interesting stuff there.