Loanwords in (P)IE

[Talskubilos]

Another fruit name is *golostr-, a derivation of IE *ǵʰelh₃- 'green, yellow' (Greek khlōrós) parallel to Celtic *glast- 'green-blue' and which spread to Ticinese ğüštrún, šištrún 'bilberry (Vaccinium myrtillus)' and Sardinian colostri, colóstri(g)u, cóstiu, golosti, bolostru, lóstiu, olosti and Basque gorosti, korosti, koosti, khorostü.'holly (Ilex arquifolium)'. Greek kḗlastros, kḗlastra, which designated a Mediterranean evergreen bush, probably the barbery bush (Berberis vulgaris), would be related but with a different Ablaut.

[Talskubilos]

There're many names of fruits with no IE etymology. For example Greek ákherdos, akhrás ‘wild pear tree’ has correspondences in Catalan gerd, gerdó, jordó, Gascon jordon, Aragonese chordón, churdón 'raspberry', but apparently not elsewhere.

It would be a metathesis of *dhergh-(no-) > Albanian drédhë ‘strawberry’, dardhë ‘pear’, Celtic *dragenā ‘sloe, fruit of the blackthorn’. Old High German dirn-baum, Russian derën ‘cornel cherry’. This appears to be derived (with denasalization of the initial nasal) from an Eurasiatic root *NEkˀrV 'thorny bush' found in Uralic *nakrV 'cedar nut' and other similar words in Altaic, Kartvelian, Dravidian and Eskimo-Aleut.

In Paleo-European, this root would give (with loss of the initial nasal) Insular Celtic *agriniā (Old Irish áirne, Welsh eirin), Gaulish *agranio- 'sole, fruit of the blackthorn', Germanic *akarna-/*akrana-/*akirna- 'acorn', Latin agresta 'green grape', agrestis and Greek ágrios 'wild', conflated wih Latin ager and Greek ágros by a folk etymology.

[Travis B.]

There're many names of fruits with no IE etymology. For example Greek ákherdos, akhrás ‘wild pear tree’ has correspondences in Catalan gerd, gerdó, jordó, Gascon jordon, Aragonese chordón, churdón 'raspberry', but apparently not elsewhere.

It would be a metathesis of *dhergh-(no-) > Albanian drédhë ‘strawberry’, dardhë ‘pear’, Celtic *dragenā ‘sloe, fruit of the blackthorn’. Old High German dirn-baum, Russian derën ‘cornel cherry’. This appears to be derived (with denasalization of the initial nasal) from an Eurasiatic root *NEkˀrV 'thorny bush' found in Uralic *nakrV 'cedar nut' and other similar words in Altaic, Kartvelian, Dravidian and Eskimo-Aleut.

In Paleo-European, this root would give (with loss of the initial nasal) Insular Celtic *agriniā (Old Irish áirne, Welsh eirin), Gaulish *agranio- 'sole, fruit of the blackthorn', Germanic *akarna-/*akrana-/*akirna- 'acorn', Latin agresta 'green grape', agrestis and Greek ágrios 'wild', conflated wih Latin ager and Greek ágros by a folk etymology.

You posit a 'Eurasiatic' and 'Paleo-European' that most certainly have not been demonstrated here.

[Ketsuban]

Moreover they seem to be assuming that because there's a couple different Indo-European languages which have a non-Indo-European word for a thing they must have the same origin, which is not remotely valid reasoning. The Greek and Macedonian terms (G ἀχράς, ᾰ̓́χερδος, M ἀγέρδα) come from Turkic (compare Turkish kertme, Kipchak kärtmä which have an internal derivation from kertmek/kärtmäk "indent, notch") while the Romance terms come from Basque. (To explain a Turkic word in Greek one need only point out the documented interaction between Scythians and the Hellenic world; to explain a Basque word in Catalan and Aragonese one need only point out that they're right next to each other on the map, come on.)

[Travis B.]

Moreover they seem to be assuming that because there's a couple different Indo-European languages which have a non-Indo-European word for a thing they must have the same origin, which is not remotely valid reasoning. The Greek and Macedonian terms (G ἀχράς, ᾰ̓́χερδος, M ἀγέρδα) come from Turkic (compare Turkish kertme, Kipchak kärtmä which have an internal derivation from kertmek/kärtmäk "indent, notch") while the Romance terms come from Basque. (To explain a Turkic word in Greek one need only point out the documented interaction between Scythians and the Hellenic world; to explain a Basque word in Catalan and Aragonese one need only point out that they're right next to each other on the map, come on.)

But but but they must be Wanderwörter!

[Talskubilos]

Moreover they seem to be assuming that because there's a couple different Indo-European languages which have a non-Indo-European word for a thing they must have the same origin, which is not remotely valid reasoning. The Greek and Macedonian terms (G ἀχράς, ᾰ̓́χερδος, M ἀγέρδα) come from Turkic (compare Turkish kertme, Kipchak kärtmä which have an internal derivation from kertmek/kärtmäk "indent, notch") while the Romance terms come from Basque. (To explain a Turkic word in Greek one need only point out the documented interaction between Scythians and the Hellenic world; to explain a Basque word in Catalan and Aragonese one need only point out that they're right next to each other on the map, come on.)

I suppose you're in "ironic mode", are you?

[bradrn]

Moreover they seem to be assuming that because there's a couple different Indo-European languages which have a non-Indo-European word for a thing they must have the same origin, which is not remotely valid reasoning. The Greek and Macedonian terms (G ἀχράς, ᾰ̓́χερδος, M ἀγέρδα) come from Turkic (compare Turkish kertme, Kipchak kärtmä which have an internal derivation from kertmek/kärtmäk "indent, notch") while the Romance terms come from Basque. (To explain a Turkic word in Greek one need only point out the documented interaction between Scythians and the Hellenic world; to explain a Basque word in Catalan and Aragonese one need only point out that they're right next to each other on the map, come on.)

I suppose you're in "ironic mode", are you?

Not at all. I find his explanations make a lot more sense than yours.

EDIT: unless that was a veiled reference to him forgetting the close-italic tag at the end of his post? I only just noticed that now.

[Ketsuban]

I put the [/i] exactly where I wanted to: before the full stop and close bracket at the end of the sentence.

[bradrn]

I put the [/i] exactly where I wanted to: before the full stop and close bracket at the end of the sentence.

When I quote your post it says you left out a backslash: [i] rather than [/i]. I can definitely see an italicised bracket in your post.

[Travis B.]

I put the [/i] exactly where I wanted to: before the full stop and close bracket at the end of the sentence.

No, you wrote [i], not [/i].

That said, your explanations here are far more plausible than Talskubilos's.

[Travis B.]

Beekes claims that ἀχράς and ᾰ̓́χερδος come from a Pre-Greek substrate, but I take that with a grain of salt, as Beekes claims that everything comes from a Pre-Greek substrate. (Wiktionary specifically identifies ᾰ̓́χερδος as likely coming from a Turkic source.)

[Ketsuban]

No, you wrote [i], not [/i].

Oh. It's fixed now.

[Talskubilos]

There're many names of fruits with no IE etymology. For example Greek ákherdos, akhrás ‘wild pear tree’ has correspondences in Catalan gerd, gerdó, jordó, Gascon jordon, Aragonese chordón, churdón 'raspberry', but apparently not elsewhere.

It would be a metathesis of *dhergh-(no-) > Albanian drédhë ‘strawberry’, dardhë ‘pear’, Celtic *dragenā ‘sloe, fruit of the blackthorn’. Old High German dirn-baum, Russian derën ‘cornel cherry’. This appears to be derived (with denasalization of the initial nasal) from an Eurasiatic root *NEkˀrV 'thorny bush' found in Uralic *nakrV 'cedar nut' and other similar words in Altaic, Kartvelian, Dravidian and Eskimo-Aleut.

In Paleo-European, this root would give (with loss of the initial nasal) Insular Celtic *agriniā (Old Irish áirne, Welsh eirin), Gaulish *agranio- 'sole, fruit of the blackthorn', Germanic *akarna-/*akrana-/*akirna- 'acorn', Latin agresta 'green grape', agrestis and Greek ágrios 'wild', conflated wih Latin ager and Greek ágros by a folk etymology.

You posit a 'Eurasiatic' and 'Paleo-European' that most certainly have not been demonstrated here.

My use of the term "Eurasiatic" doesn't imply a stablished genetic relationship (If I'm critical of the std PIE model, more so of its extension to other language families) but a grouping of shared lexicon among these languages. And "Paleo-European" is a label for one of several lexicon strata found in some IE languages (mainly Italic, Germanic, Celtic an perhaps Balto-Slavic), but not in the rest (Mallory-Adams use the term "NW European languages" for that). But although this *agr- would be likely connected to the other "Eurasiatic" words, this *dhergh- would involve a metathesis *Kr -> *rK besides denasalization.

[Talskubilos]

Not at all. I find his explanations make a lot more sense than yours.

Really? A Turkic loanword into Ancient Greek and a non-existent Basque word into Romance?

[Talskubilos]

Beekes claims that ἀχράς and ᾰ̓́χερδος come from a Pre-Greek substrate, but I take that with a grain of salt, as Beekes claims that everything comes from a Pre-Greek substrate. (Wiktionary specifically identifies ᾰ̓́χερδος as likely coming from a Turkic source.)

Wiktionary is a second-hand, and very often, unreliable source. Beekes's Pre-Greek is a miscellanous category which includes lonawords from extinct IE languages (e.g. Thracian) as well as from non-IE ones (to which he equals all Pre-Greek). For example, thálassa 'sea' has a nice IE etymology from *telh₂- 'terrain', seeing it as a large plain.

[Travis B.]

Not at all. I find his explanations make a lot more sense than yours.

Really? A Turkic loanword into Ancient Greek and a non-existent Basque word into Romance?

Turkic loanwords into Ancient Greek are perfectly plausible given the Turkic presence around the Black Sea (and the fact that the Turkic word transparently means 'pear' and has been loaned into other languages around the Black Sea with this meaning such as Chechen, Ossetian, and Ingush), and Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana states that the source of Catalan gerd is likely Vasco-Aquitanian gĭrd-.

[Travis B.]

Beekes claims that ἀχράς and ᾰ̓́χερδος come from a Pre-Greek substrate, but I take that with a grain of salt, as Beekes claims that everything comes from a Pre-Greek substrate. (Wiktionary specifically identifies ᾰ̓́χερδος as likely coming from a Turkic source.)

Wiktionary is a second-hand, and very often, unreliable source. Beekes's Pre-Greek is a miscellanous category which includes lonawords from extinct IE languages (e.g. Thracian) as well as from non-IE ones (to which he equals all Pre-Greek). For example, thálassa 'sea' has a nice IE etymology from *telh₂- 'terrain', seeing it as a large plain.

Regardless of the imperfect reliability of Wiktionary, in many cases it is much more reliable than wildly throwing about things like 'Eurasiatic' and 'Paleo-European'.

[Talskubilos]

Turkic loanwords into Ancient Greek are perfectly plausible given the Turkic presence around the Black Sea (and the fact that the Turkic word transparently means 'pear' and has been loaned into other languages around the Black Sea with this meaning such as Chechen, Ossetian, and Ingush), and Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana states that the source of Catalan gerd is likely Vasco-Aquitanian gĭrd-.

There's no evidence for such word. I've already warned you about secondary and unreliable sources.

[Travis B.]

Turkic loanwords into Ancient Greek are perfectly plausible given the Turkic presence around the Black Sea (and the fact that the Turkic word transparently means 'pear' and has been loaned into other languages around the Black Sea with this meaning such as Chechen, Ossetian, and Ingush), and Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana states that the source of Catalan gerd is likely Vasco-Aquitanian gĭrd-.

There's no evidence for such word. I've already warned you about secondary and unreliable sources.

So Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana is a "secondary and unreliable source", but whatever Eurasiatic 'roots' you pull out of thin air are reliable? Yeah.

[Talskubilos]

Regardless of the imperfect reliability of Wiktionary, in many cases it is much more reliable than wildly throwing about things like 'Eurasiatic' and 'Paleo-European'.

As I said before, there're nothing more than useful labels for classifying words, not Frankestein-like entities based on the std PIE model.

So Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana is a "secondary and unreliable source", but whatever Eurasiatic 'roots' you pull out of thin air are reliable? Yeah.

AFAIK, there's no Basque correspondence for this word.