Elections in various countries

[Raphael]

Just found a screenshot of a social media post, I don't know from where or when, that I just have to quote here. Soooooooooooooooo true! (by someone who goes by "ruler of Seattle" or "@ThoughtSlime".)

People who become right wing because they get annoyed by leftists are weak willed, most leftists are annoyed by leftists every single day.

[Raphael]

Alon Levy has posted something delightfully provocative on Bluesky:

https://bsky.app/profile/alonlevy.bsky. ... ts5mqsz22z

The postwar French constitutions are pretty shitty, and France, Europe, and the world would all be better places now if de Gaulle had died in a plane crash in 1942.

Thoughts? Comments?

[zompist]

The postwar French constitutions are pretty shitty, and France, Europe, and the world would all be better places now if de Gaulle had died in a plane crash in 1942.

Thoughts? Comments?

One-liners are not really a political argument. I just read the Wikipedia bio of de Gaulle, and I guess my question for Alon would be "Who would you choose instead?" Was there another leader who could organize the Free French, assist the liberation, and be just prickly enough to give France a permanent Security Council seat, yet not so prickly at to destroy the EU? The same can be said of the Algerian war; it seems to be a Nixon-in-China moment, where only a center-right figure had the political capital to free Algeria.

He was useless in 1968, but dude was 78, people don't always keep up.

[Travis B.]

Alon Levy has posted something delightfully provocative on Bluesky:

https://bsky.app/profile/alonlevy.bsky. ... ts5mqsz22z

The postwar French constitutions are pretty shitty, and France, Europe, and the world would all be better places now if de Gaulle had died in a plane crash in 1942.

Thoughts? Comments?

I'm with zompist here -- was there really anyone else who could have taken de Gaulle's place as leader of the Free French, or who could have actually given Algeria its independence? Remember that the people who led the Fourth Republic (to those who are not aware here, read: not de Gaulle) were all-around quite shitty, which belies the statement that de Gaulle was solely responsible for the issues of postwar France.

[Ares Land]

I think it’s intended to be provocative

The 4th republic was a terrible system. Though modern historians are now aware that the image of catastrophic inaction is somewhat exaggerated. Anyway, it collapsed during the Algerian war so, still pretty bad.

I think the 5th republic didn’t turn out so bad for a Bonapartist/monarchist fantasy! The consistution has lasted seventy years now and weathered several political crises (several of these a direct product of the constitution, so I don’t know if they count. I still think it’s a bad system. I've explained why before at length, but here's the short version: a) it’s likely either the Nazi cat lady or her illiterate sidekick, the boy wonder, will be president next year b) our constitution is very close to the Russian one. The problem should be obvious.

It’s still a better system than the US, the UK or Italy. But I think the German constitution is better.

I don’t agree with Alon Levy’s assessment of De Gaulle, who really was a decent ruler. It’s not everyday you get a reactionary ill-tempered military man who is also smart, capable, realistic devoid of any ambition besides doing what he feels is right, and willing to listen to his political opponents and to leave power when it’s clear he's no longer wanted.

That said, there is a very real dark side to the Gauĺlist era. Among other faults, it was an authoritarian regime (those people admired Franco and the Mexican PRI) All in all it was kind of a lucky break: it could have been a lot worse.

My view is that De Gaulle overstepped his mandate in '58. The idea was that a elder, respected statesman would lead a national unity government. What happened next is kind of a coup. A reasonably peaceful coup that ended up alright, but it’s still a coup even if the head generalissimo happens, by a fluke, to be a good guy. So mixed feelings. It is quite possible that a coup was inevitable in 58 anyway, so better De Gaulle than Salan starting a putsch in Paris rather than Alger.
The 4th republic was decried as irremediably bad in later propaganda. But there were exceptional leaders at the time too; one I admire is Mendès France. He would have arranged for Algerian independance far more quickly and decisively. Except the institutions wouldn’t support decisive action, also he was Jewish and a target of antisemitism.

All in all: the 4th republic was shitty, the 5th less so but still shitty, mixed feelings on De Gaulle, but it’s probably for the best he was still around in 58.

[WeepingElf]

Alon Levy has posted something delightfully provocative on Bluesky:

https://bsky.app/profile/alonlevy.bsky. ... ts5mqsz22z

The postwar French constitutions are pretty shitty, and France, Europe, and the world would all be better places now if de Gaulle had died in a plane crash in 1942.

Thoughts? Comments?

I'm with zompist here -- was there really anyone else who could have taken de Gaulle's place as leader of the Free French, or who could have actually given Algeria its independence? Remember that the people who led the Fourth Republic (to those who are not aware here, read: not de Gaulle) were all-around quite shitty, which belies the statement that de Gaulle was solely responsible for the issues of postwar France.

Yep! Also, the Fifth Republic works much better than the Fourth did, which had inherited the problems of the Third Republic with little change. The current difficulties in governing the country are due to the strength of the far right (as in so many countries), and the lack of a good coalition culture like the one we have here in Germany. Neither has anything to do with any alleged design flaws of the Fifth Republic.

[bradrn]

b) our constitution is very close to the Russian one

Wait, what?

[Ares Land]

Yep! Also, the Fifth Republic works much better than the Fourth did, which had inherited the problems of the Third Republic with little change. The current difficulties in governing the country are due to the strength of the far right (as in so many countries), and the lack of a good coalition culture like the one we have here in Germany. Neither has anything to do with any alleged design flaws of the Fifth Republic.

I tend to disagree. The strength of the far right is in part a product of the presidential election, which granted a platform to both Le Pens and was key to their strategy. There are fascists in other countries, granted, but the FN/RN certainlyn is a model for, say, the AFD.

The lack of a coalition culture is of course a product of the institutions: coalitions aren’t necessary under the 5th republic (note that after a couple of hiccups the government can go along without a majority and does) so theres no need to learn how to build one. Plus, why bother when you can just wait till 2027?

[Ares Land]

b) our constitution is very close to the Russian one

Wait, what?

Wait till you hear about the president’s emergency dictatorial powers! (Note: they are real)

The Russians modelled their constitution on ours because it was felt to be stable.

EDIT: and, I mean, it worked.

[WeepingElf]

Point taken, Ares Land. I am no expert in French politics, and I don't think they are particularly good. I only meant to observe that the Fifth Republic has had so far more stable governments than the Fourth.

I do think that (1) parliamentary systems are more democratic than presidential systems and (2) proportional representation is more democratic than single-member constituencies. The only disadvantage of parliamentary systems with proportional representation is that they often lead to fragmented legislatures, but those do not necessarily lead to unstable governments if there is a good coalition culture. The Scandinavian countries indeed have quite fragmented legislatures and yet are the best-functioning democracies of the world because the parties are used to forming coalitions and to constructive opposition work (i.e., a proposal for an act of parliament is not rejected just because it was "from the wrong camp"; rather, amendments to it are proposed).

[Ares Land]

Point taken, Ares Land. I am no expert in French politics, and I don't think they are particularly good. I only meant to observe that the Fifth Republic has had so far more stable governments than the Fourth.

Neither am I I'd add that my opinion on this is a minority view in France. People here tend to feel the system works and that it’s the natural way to run things.

[malloc]

a) it’s likely either the Nazi cat lady or her illiterate sidekick, the boy wonder, will be president next year

Sounds like horrible news. Pessimistic as it sounds, I really do get the sense that we are on the precipice, only a few elections away from fascism taking over the world.

[Raphael]

Thank you for your thoughts, everyone!

[MacAnDàil]

To me British neocolonialism does live on in cases like the Chagos Islands and for a long time you could consider Northern Ireland to be a neocolonial project though.

Then again I have very little sympathy for 'Malvinas Argentinas' or the Spanish claims to Gibraltar -- the sovereignty of actual people alive today is what matters, not the legalistics of theoretical centuries-old claims that are not supported by the people living in the places in question.

Or precolonial: Scotland and England started colonising Northern Ireland before the Age of Exploration. Indeed, the first wave went back to the 12th century when the English colonisers claimed that the Irish were insufficiently Christian despite Irishmen having participated in the evangelisation of Great Britain. This demonstrates that evangelisation colonisations may just excuses.

Looks like Alberta wants to bet everything on the Trump card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Alberta_referendum https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton ... -9.7208162

Leaving aside morality, ethics, and overall scumbaggery, I'd say how smart or dumb this is as a move depends on political developments in the USA. If Trumpism ends up permanently politically dominant in the USA, it might be, in hindsight, a very smart move. On the other hand, if Trumpism ends up beaten in the USA, and the USA ends up with a decidedly anti-Trumpist political leadership, a hypothetical independent Alberta would find itself as a landlocked nation entirely surrounded by only two other countries, with both of whose governments it would be on bad terms.

Will the bad news never cease? The right has been on one hell of a winning streak (at least in terms of electoral victories) for entirely too long. Aside from the problems you mentioned, this will make things much harder for the rest of Canada by putting two border crossings between British Columbia and the rest of the country. Surely there must be some way to fight this disastrous measure at the federal level.


It's also quite possible that Alberta will become a US state at some point, which would further strengthen GOP electoral prospects.

The Canadian Conservative Party lost support following Trump's second coming to power. The same goes for the Australian equivalent. Since then, the Canadian Party has further lost support. So the right win some and lose some.

It is interesting that you make a contrast between 'anarchists' and 'socialists' or 'leftists', as typically anarchists see themselves as being socialists, and anarchists will readily use the category of 'libertarian socialism' to include both anarchism and forms of libertarian Marxism such as council communism.

They are certainly leftists; my point in fact was that Zemaitis was ignoring this swatch of leftists who are well aware of authoritarian failures.

Anarchists are not necessarily leftists because there are also anarcho-capitalists. Left-wing anarchists may claim they are not really anarchists because
the bosses are still in charge but that makes sense according to their own ideology, not the anarcho-capitalists'.

Alon Levy has posted something delightfully provocative on Bluesky:

https://bsky.app/profile/alonlevy.bsky. ... ts5mqsz22z

The postwar French constitutions are pretty shitty, and France, Europe, and the world would all be better places now if de Gaulle had died in a plane crash in 1942.

Thoughts? Comments?

I'm with zompist here -- was there really anyone else who could have taken de Gaulle's place as leader of the Free French, or who could have actually given Algeria its independence? Remember that the people who led the Fourth Republic (to those who are not aware here, read: not de Gaulle) were all-around quite shitty, which belies the statement that de Gaulle was solely responsible for the issues of postwar France.

This is mostly true but the Fourth Republic brought in social security, national healthcare and other modern improvements, notably by Ambroise Croizat.

The 4th republic was a terrible system. Though modern historians are now aware that the image of catastrophic inaction is somewhat exaggerated. Anyway, it collapsed during the Algerian war so, still pretty bad.

I think the 5th republic didn’t turn out so bad for a Bonapartist/monarchist fantasy! The consistution has lasted seventy years now and weathered several political crises (several of these a direct product of the constitution, so I don’t know if they count. I still think it’s a bad system. I've explained why before at length, but here's the short version: a) it’s likely either the Nazi cat lady or her illiterate sidekick, the boy wonder, will be president next year b) our constitution is very close to the Russian one. The problem should be obvious.

Almost all the French republics ended during wars: the first during the Revolutionary Wars, the second got highjacked by Napoleon III, the third ended in WW2, the fourth in the Algerian War. Therefore, the Fourth Republic was not necessarily more unstable than the others; it just came at an unfortunate time. Admittedly, the fourth was not a war on the main territory of France, but, considering that Algeria was considered that at the time, the point still stands.

The next president may also be Edouard Philippe, the first prime minister of the current president. Note that 1° the polls show him taking a slight lead over the neofascists 2° said neofascists often underperform compared to the polls 3° Marine Le Pen is currently still over her head over having fakely employed assistants at the EU. Who were these assistants? Was Jordan Bardella among them?

[Ares Land]

The next president may also be Edouard Philippe, the first prime minister of the current president. Note that 1° the polls show him taking a slight lead over the neofascists 2° said neofascists often underperform compared to the polls 3° Marine Le Pen is currently still over her head over having fakely employed assistants at the EU. Who were these assistants? Was Jordan Bardella among them?

Bardella was a parliamentary assistant at the time but apparently not among those assistants deemed fakely employed.
I don't know why. Bardella, a MEP, is so inactive there he's nicknamed 'Barde-pas-là.'

Marine Le Pen will be allowed to run for the presidential elections; the latest polls have her winning the second round against any candidate.
The election is next year so of course it's really too early to tell.

[Travis B.]

It is interesting that you make a contrast between 'anarchists' and 'socialists' or 'leftists', as typically anarchists see themselves as being socialists, and anarchists will readily use the category of 'libertarian socialism' to include both anarchism and forms of libertarian Marxism such as council communism.

They are certainly leftists; my point in fact was that Zemaitis was ignoring this swatch of leftists who are well aware of authoritarian failures.

Anarchists are not necessarily leftists because there are also anarcho-capitalists. Left-wing anarchists may claim they are not really anarchists because
the bosses are still in charge but that makes sense according to their own ideology, not the anarcho-capitalists'.

"Anarcho-capitalists" are anarchists in the way that National Socialists are socialists.

[WeepingElf]

The next president may also be Edouard Philippe, the first prime minister of the current president. Note that 1° the polls show him taking a slight lead over the neofascists 2° said neofascists often underperform compared to the polls 3° Marine Le Pen is currently still over her head over having fakely employed assistants at the EU. Who were these assistants? Was Jordan Bardella among them?

Bardella was a parliamentary assistant at the time but apparently not among those assistants deemed fakely employed.
I don't know why. Bardella, a MEP, is so inactive there he's nicknamed 'Barde-pas-là.'

Marine Le Pen will be allowed to run for the presidential elections; the latest polls have her winning the second round against any candidate.
The election is next year so of course it's really too early to tell.

This sounds like a very bad prospect. But it hasn't happened yet, so there can still something be done to prevent it from happening.

[Ares Land]

This sounds like a very bad prospect. But it hasn't happened yet, so there can still something be done to prevent it from happening.

I entirely agree. It’s also too early to tell anyway.

[malloc]

Marine Le Pen will be allowed to run for the presidential elections; the latest polls have her winning the second round against any candidate.
The election is next year so of course it's really too early to tell.

That sounds incredibly bleak. I had no idea the situation is France had deteriorated so badly that the fascists are now the frontrunner. What the hell is happening to drive everyone crazy?

[bradrn]

Marine Le Pen will be allowed to run for the presidential elections; the latest polls have her winning the second round against any candidate.
The election is next year so of course it's really too early to tell.

That sounds incredibly bleak. I had no idea the situation is France had deteriorated so badly that the fascists are now the frontrunner. What the hell is happening to drive everyone crazy?

It’s not a sudden change, to be clear. When I was in France during the elections in 2024, I recall Le Pen being one of the frontrunners too.