Conworld random thread

[bradrn]

when they perceive the event horizon as having expanded

But this is exactly the problem — I’m not sure whether the event horizon can be perceived.

[zompist]

Question: has anything like this ever existed, either in real life or in any conworld you know of?

I'm thinking about a society or community that would have a political, or maybe religious or cultural, institution which would be a kind of "council of generations". That is, it would be the rule that, let's say, one third of the council would have to be young people, one third would have to be middle-aged people, and one third would have to be elderly people.

Yes. Just not in three sections, but in two. The epic of Gilgamesh describes Uruk having two councils, one of elders and one of young men. Gilgamesh consults both before fighting the monster Humbaba.

[Raphael]

Question: has anything like this ever existed, either in real life or in any conworld you know of?

I'm thinking about a society or community that would have a political, or maybe religious or cultural, institution which would be a kind of "council of generations". That is, it would be the rule that, let's say, one third of the council would have to be young people, one third would have to be middle-aged people, and one third would have to be elderly people.

Yes. Just not in three sections, but in two. The epic of Gilgamesh describes Uruk having two councils, one of elders and one of young men. Gilgamesh consults both before fighting the monster Humbaba.

Ah, thank you!

[Moose-tache]

Yeah, I guess I fail to see the issue. The effect of the extra mass would propagate at the usual speed, same as if you added extra mass to a can of sardines.

[bradrn]

Yeah, I guess I fail to see the issue. The effect of the extra mass would propagate at the usual speed, same as if you added extra mass to a can of sardines.

I think the issue is the no-hair theorem: that the geometry of a black hole is completely determined by its mass, angular momentum and electric charge. That would seem to suggest that a black hole with mass having just been added to it (even at a time before that information could have propagated at the speed of light) is indistinguishable from any other black hole of that mass.

Reading the article, I do see a couple of references to the theorem not applying to ‘unstable’ black holes. So perhaps that’s the answer? It takes some time for the black hole to stabilise after ingesting mass?

[Travis B.]

Yeah, I guess I fail to see the issue. The effect of the extra mass would propagate at the usual speed, same as if you added extra mass to a can of sardines.

I think the issue is the no-hair theorem: that the geometry of a black hole is completely determined by its mass, angular momentum and electric charge. That would seem to suggest that a black hole with mass having just been added to it (even at a time before that information could have propagated at the speed of light) is indistinguishable from any other black hole of that mass.

Reading the article, I do see a couple of references to the theorem not applying to ‘unstable’ black holes. So perhaps that’s the answer? It takes some time for the black hole to stabilise after ingesting mass?

The thing is that if the properties of a black hole changed homogeneously instantaneously, that would violate that the maximum speed of information is the speed of light. Then Alice and Bob could have FTL communication via each of them throwing mass in a black hole.

[Moose-tache]

What do you mean when you say "reading the article?" Because the first paragraph says:

"Other characteristics (such as geometry and magnetic moment) are uniquely determined by these three parameters, and all other information (for which "hair" is a metaphor) about the matter that formed a black hole or is falling into it "disappears" behind the black-hole event horizon and is therefore permanently inaccessible to external observers after the black hole "settles down" (by emitting gravitational and electromagnetic waves)."

The theorem doesn't "seems to suggest" any instantaneous change across the entire object, and in fact specifically contradicts this.

[bradrn]

What do you mean when you say "reading the article?" Because the first paragraph says:

"Other characteristics (such as geometry and magnetic moment) are uniquely determined by these three parameters, and all other information (for which "hair" is a metaphor) about the matter that formed a black hole or is falling into it "disappears" behind the black-hole event horizon and is therefore permanently inaccessible to external observers after the black hole "settles down" (by emitting gravitational and electromagnetic waves)."

Ah, obviously I missed that bit… I think that answers the original question, then.

[malloc]

One silver lining of the past decade with all its catastrophes and looming apocalypse has been some ideas on reviving my old conworld and providing more solid explanations for its more distinctive elements. Previously I had happily introduced elements based on whatever sounded fun without really considering how they fit together or originated within the setting. Now however, I have some plausible explanations for why my conculture shunned computers and other inorganic technologies in favor of biotechnology beyond simple aesthetics. Presumably the catastrophic effects of AI and global warming in the conworld timeline have soured people on computers, fossil fuels, and so forth, leading them to focus on technologies perceived as ecological or pro-human.

Admittedly other aspects like the use of clicks in Terpish remain difficult to explain. One downside of setting stories in the nearish future is fewer opportunities for fanciful language construction like what otherworldly fantasy allows.

[Man in Space]

Thank you, everyone who contributed to the question.

[WeepingElf]

Good to hear, malloc. Working on a future history where the human race overcomes the current crisis is an excellent way of coping with your worries, and it will give your life a meaning. I can tell from my own life.

I have no good answers on the question how a language of the nearish future could evolve clicks, though. The question how those languages which have them acquired them is AFAIK unresolved. My personal hypothesis is that they originated from doubly articulated stops or clusters, e.g. /tk/ > /!/. There is so little known here that you can be very creative here. And finally, Terpish may just be an intrafictional conlang that somehow becomes hugely popular, e.g. by being associated with a movement that shows a way out of the crisis people are eager to follow.

[Ares Land]

One silver lining of the past decade with all its catastrophes and looming apocalypse has been some ideas on reviving my old conworld and providing more solid explanations for its more distinctive elements. Previously I had happily introduced elements based on whatever sounded fun without really considering how they fit together or originated within the setting. Now however, I have some plausible explanations for why my conculture shunned computers and other inorganic technologies in favor of biotechnology beyond simple aesthetics. Presumably the catastrophic effects of AI and global warming in the conworld timeline have soured people on computers, fossil fuels, and so forth, leading them to focus on technologies perceived as ecological or pro-human.

Admittedly other aspects like the use of clicks in Terpish remain difficult to explain. One downside of setting stories in the nearish future is fewer opportunities for fanciful language construction like what otherworldly fantasy allows.

That sounds like very interesting conworlding.

As for the clicks -- what’s the internal history of Terpish? Is it a conlang, in-universe? Or (if this is our near future) does it derive from a present day language?

(Edit: I didn’t read Weeping Elf’s answer before posting, but basically what he said!)

[malloc]

That sounds like very interesting conworlding.

As for the clicks -- what’s the internal history of Terpish? Is it a conlang, in-universe? Or (if this is our near future) does it derive from a present day language?

(Edit: I didn’t read Weeping Elf’s answer before posting, but basically what he said!)

Well, that was kind of the problem with my original setting, introducing ideas that sounded cool without having a good explanation for how they would actually work. There are many aspects that feel more relevant than ever and others like Terpish evolving clicks for unclear reasons that are totally out of left field.

I have no good answers on the question how a language of the nearish future could evolve clicks, though. The question how those languages which have them acquired them is AFAIK unresolved. My personal hypothesis is that they originated from doubly articulated stops or clusters, e.g. /tk/ > /!/. There is so little known here that you can be very creative here. And finally, Terpish may just be an intrafictional conlang that somehow becomes hugely popular, e.g. by being associated with a movement that shows a way out of the crisis people are eager to follow.

Certainly there are possibilities and I have some ideas of my own for how clicks might evolve. Another possible factor to consider is areal influence. Perhaps southern Africa fared the apocalypse better than average for whatever reason, leading to click languages greatly impacting the new linguistic landscape or even giving rise to Terpish itself.

[WeepingElf]

Perhaps southern Africa fared the apocalypse better than average for whatever reason, leading to click languages greatly impacting the new linguistic landscape or even giving rise to Terpish itself.

As you mention "the apocalypse", isn't it better to build a hopeful near future where the apocalypse is avoided rather than a new civilization is built after an apocalypse? Surely, we are heading towards a severe crisis, and my future history features such a crisis, but I still have hope that a collapse of civilization can be avoided.

[Richard W]

I have no good answers on the question how a language of the nearish future could evolve clicks, though. The question how those languages which have them acquired them is AFAIK unresolved.

Could they be original, so that as a class they are either inherited or borrowed, and loss is otherwise permanent?

[WeepingElf]

I have no good answers on the question how a language of the nearish future could evolve clicks, though. The question how those languages which have them acquired them is AFAIK unresolved.

Could they be original, so that as a class they are either inherited or borrowed, and loss is otherwise permanent?

You mean as in the "Proto-Click" hypothesis, i.e. Proto-Human had clicks, and they are lost everywhere else, and never evolved from other sounds after the time of Proto-Human? I am very sceptical of that. As I said, clicks could easily emerge from such clusters as /tk/, or the doubly-articulated stops like those found in many Western African languages. One of my ideas for side projects is an IE language where the "thorn" clusters evolved into clicks.

[bradrn]

As I said, clicks could easily emerge from such clusters as /tk/, or the doubly-articulated stops like those found in many Western African languages. One of my ideas for side projects is an IE language where the "thorn" clusters evolved into clicks.

For that matter, clicks have already been detected allophonically in German: https://www.icphs2007.de/conference/Pap ... 8/1678.pdf.

[WeepingElf]

As I said, clicks could easily emerge from such clusters as /tk/, or the doubly-articulated stops like those found in many Western African languages. One of my ideas for side projects is an IE language where the "thorn" clusters evolved into clicks.

For that matter, clicks have already been detected allophonically in German: https://www.icphs2007.de/conference/Pap ... 8/1678.pdf.

Interesting, though I cannot really follow it because it is very technical, and I am not a phonetician. But apparently, clicks can emerge more easily from such stop clusters than often assumed, which speaks against the Proto-Click hypothesis.

[bradrn]

As I said, clicks could easily emerge from such clusters as /tk/, or the doubly-articulated stops like those found in many Western African languages. One of my ideas for side projects is an IE language where the "thorn" clusters evolved into clicks.

For that matter, clicks have already been detected allophonically in German: https://www.icphs2007.de/conference/Pap ... 8/1678.pdf.

Interesting, though I cannot really follow it because it is very technical, and I am not a phonetician.

I believe the key figures to look at are Figures 4 and 6: the former shows quite clearly how there is a period where the tongue touches the alveolar ridge and the velum but leaves a hollow area in between, while the latter shows a corresponding period of negative pressure in the mouth just before the alveolar closure is released. Together those indicate a sound produced by forming a partial vacuum between a front and rear closure, i.e. a click.

[WeepingElf]

For that matter, clicks have already been detected allophonically in German: https://www.icphs2007.de/conference/Pap ... 8/1678.pdf.

Interesting, though I cannot really follow it because it is very technical, and I am not a phonetician.

I believe the key figures to look at are Figures 4 and 6: the former shows quite clearly how there is a period where the tongue touches the alveolar ridge and the velum but leaves a hollow area in between, while the latter shows a corresponding period of negative pressure in the mouth just before the alveolar closure is released. Together those indicate a sound produced by forming a partial vacuum between a front and rear closure, i.e. a click.

Yes, so far I could understand it.