I've written a long cranky political tract: Semi-Utopianism

[Raphael]

Hi everyone, as I already mentioned in a different thread, I'd been working on a kind of political tract. That is, it's that latest version of a project that I started working on last year. I probably still wouldn't have finished it if I wouldn't have changed parts of my plans for it last week.

It basically provides an extensive political platform.

I'm afraid it's fairly rambling and cranky, and ended up pretty long. The pdf version is 100 pages long, and those are standard US Letter pages.

Despite all that, I would really appreciate it if, just in case anyone reads it and likes it at least a bit, they would share it with others. And feedback would be great. I think I put a lot of myself into this.

Edit: version 1.1 has a number of typo corrections, but no serious changes:

There's a pdf version at

https://drive.proton.me/urls/GTPSAPMEDC#TcdoSiXARDOi

and an epub version at

https://drive.proton.me/urls/6VJZAMSQAC#bK3enAsWRN18



I'm thinking about getting myself an archive.org account and posting it there, too. Does anyone know about any potential pros and cons of that?

If you read it, thank you for reading!

[Ares Land]

Oh, so here it is, I didn't expect it that soon
I'll be glad to read it.

[Raphael]

Oh, so here it is, I didn't expect it that soon
I'll be glad to read it.

Thank you!

[bradrn]

I skimmed through various bits of this document. Mostly I found myself thinking repeatedly, ‘well, duh… isn’t that obvious?’. But maybe I’m not the right target audience.

(As an aside, I got curious when I saw the address at the end, and looked it up. If that’s where you live, I think the area looks very pretty! Reminds me a bit of where I lived back in Sydney.)

[Raphael]

I skimmed through various bits of this document. Mostly I found myself thinking repeatedly, ‘well, duh… isn’t that obvious?’. But maybe I’m not the right target audience.

Hey, from my perspective, it's very good if there are people in the world who see that stuff as obvious.

(As an aside, I got curious when I saw the address at the end, and looked it up. If that’s where you live I think the area looks very pretty! Reminds me a bit of where I lived back in Sydney.)

I should note that I rent half an ADU and would never be able to afford a house here.

[bradrn]

I should note that I rent half an ADU and would never be able to afford a house here.

‘ADU’?

[Raphael]

I should note that I rent half an ADU and would never be able to afford a house here.

‘ADU’?

Another term I've heard is "granny flat". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_suite

[bradrn]

I should note that I rent half an ADU and would never be able to afford a house here.

‘ADU’?

Another term I've heard is "granny flat". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_suite

Ah yes, ‘granny flat’ is the term I’m familiar with.

[rotting bones]

I skimmed through various bits of this document. Mostly I found myself thinking repeatedly, ‘well, duh… isn’t that obvious?’. But maybe I’m not the right target audience.

Hey, from my perspective, it's very good if there are people in the world who see that stuff as obvious.

There are reasons to think that it's a bad thing. If people already agree with you in large numbers and things are still bad, then what good will writing about it do?

Specifically, there's no point spreading values-based thinking. Every major faction in 21st century politics believes in values. THAT'S the problem. Values within society always manifest as fascist values because that's what currently makes money (by defrauding the poor). The system you defend is responsible for generating the outcomes you dislike.

(Have you considered Catholicism as a state religion? Armies of philosopher-theologians guided by the Holy Spirit!)

[bradrn]

If people already agree with you in large numbers and things are still bad, then what good will writing about it do?

Well, as far as I can tell there’s lots of people who don’t agree with me and Raphael. You, for example.

[rotting bones]

If people already agree with you in large numbers and things are still bad, then what good will writing about it do?

Well, as far as I can tell there’s lots of people who don’t agree with me and Raphael. You, for example.

I am a tiny minority*. As Raphael is aware, this tract does nothing to convince me, and I'm closer to his point of view than most fascists.

* As far as I know, I'm the only human who agrees with me. The closest is Paul Cockshott, and he promotes Five Year Plans.

[Raphael]

Specifically, there's no point spreading values-based thinking. Every major faction in 21st century politics believes in values. THAT'S the problem. Values within society always manifest as fascist values because that's what currently makes money (by defrauding the poor).

That's assuming that there's one unified thing called "values". False assumption, therefore false conclusion.

You have political opinions, right?

"Specifically, there's no point spreading political opinions-based thinking. Every major faction in 21st century politics believes in political opinions. THAT'S the problem. Political opinions within society always manifest as fascist political opinions because that's what currently makes money (by defrauding the poor)."

If that's a bad argument to make about political opinions, it's a bad argument to make about values, too.

There are different kinds of values, and the values I support are about as different from the values of fascists as you can get.

[rotting bones]

That's assuming that there's one unified thing called "values". False assumption, therefore false conclusion.

You have political opinions, right?

"Specifically, there's no point spreading political opinions-based thinking. Every major faction in 21st century politics believes in political opinions. THAT'S the problem. Political opinions within society always manifest as fascist political opinions because that's what currently makes money (by defrauding the poor)."

If that's a bad argument to make about political opinions, it's a bad argument to make about values, too.

I'm not saying only fascist values are values. It's not profitable to spread values that don't defraud the poor under capitalism.

My alternative to values is a purely strategic revolution by the dispossessed: https://snapshotsofthelabyrinth.photo.b ... -ideology/

There are different kinds of values, and the values I support are about as different from the values of fascists as you can get.

I said I'm closer to your point of view than fascists.

[Raphael]

I'm not saying only fascist values are values.

You did use the term "values" in a way as if that would be a single, unified thing.

My alternative to values is a purely strategic revolution by the dispossessed: https://snapshotsofthelabyrinth.photo.b ... -ideology/

1) That's what at least some of the fascists say they're selling, too. "Let's get all the stuff back for America that those foreigners have taken from us! Screw those who say that would violate values!"

2) The idea that the dispossessed deserve an improvement in their condition is itself a value judgment.

[Ares Land]

Hmm, I only had the time to skim through it. Some of these views are relatively mainstream, others (such as the economy proposals) less so. I find a number of things I disagree with (which is fine!)

There are reasons to think that it's a bad thing. If people already agree with you in large numbers and things are still bad, then what good will writing about it do?

In a democracy, any number short of a majority may mean a large number of people but not enough to get anything done. So trying to convince people is always useful -- it may also give useful structure to ideas everyone sorts of agree with.

Specifically, there's no point spreading values-based thinking. Every major faction in 21st century politics believes in values. THAT'S the problem. Values within society always manifest as fascist values because that's what currently makes money (by defrauding the poor). The system you defend is responsible for generating the outcomes you dislike.

How about the sappy and cheesy stuff like democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, human rights? Those are values, opposite to fascism. They're easy to dismiss, sure, but it's wrong to do so I think. -- they're actively preventing fascism from doing what they'd like.

Is fascism profitable? Yes, in the short term, provided you're friends with the right people.

[rotting bones]

In a democracy, any number short of a majority may mean a large number of people but not enough to get anything done. So trying to convince people is always useful -- it may also give useful structure to ideas everyone sorts of agree with.

This tract is not written to persuade. It's written to explain a position.

More importantly, it promotes majority views. If most people agreeing with you doesn't change the world, maybe it's time to doubt whether your ideas have world-changing potential.

How about the sappy and cheesy stuff like democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, human rights? Those are values, opposite to fascism. They're easy to dismiss, sure, but it's wrong to do so I think. -- they're actively preventing fascism from doing what they'd like.

As I explain in the link, democracy is a consequence of not imposing values on others. The detailed theory comes from Bruce Bueno de Mesquita about how powerful leaders are incentivized to fuck over the people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/15q63qf ... p=drivesdk It's strategic of me to oppose dictators.

Not having a dictator means voting in some sense. Human rights are required to keep voting fair. See point 1: https://snapshotsofthelabyrinth.photo.b ... -planning/

Democracy is not sappy at all. I'm the demos! Give me power! Not only are these ideas not sappy, the two main books my ideas are based on are both mathematical: https://drive.google.com/file/d/15v5e44 ... p=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aE_fnO ... p=drivesdk

Is fascism profitable? Yes, in the short term, provided you're friends with the right people.

Spreading fascism is profitable for the people spreading it. That's why they're doing it.

[rotting bones]

You did use the term "values" in a way as if that would be a single, unified thing.

No, I didn't.

1) That's what at least some of the fascists say they're selling, too. "Let's get all the stuff back for America that those foreigners have taken from us! Screw those who say that would violate values!"

Fascism is very values-oriented as your quote shows. I am against it. Being against it gives you a wider coalition.

2) The idea that the dispossessed deserve an improvement in their condition is itself a value judgment.

As the dispossessed, it's my self-interest. Note that I'm against values in politics. People can have values. As the link says, mine is Rawlsianism. Not having values in politics lets me form a diverse coalition.

[WeepingElf]

I've skimmed over it, and my first impression is that it is not very far from my own thinking. But I need to read it more carefully to say anything definite about it.

[Raphael]

Corrected some typos. See original post.

Here's the backup of the corrected epub:

Semi-Utopianism A Proposal 1.1.zip

(84.12 KiB) Downloaded 77 times

[rotting bones]

1) That's what at least some of the fascists say they're selling, too. "Let's get all the stuff back for America that those foreigners have taken from us! Screw those who say that would violate values!"

Fascism is very values-oriented as your quote shows. I am against it. Being against it gives you a wider coalition.

Note that poor fascists tend to hate "corporate" power too, though they have no analytical perspective on how the world works.