German Politics Thread

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WeepingElf
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Re: German Politics Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2026 2:34 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2026 2:23 pm Random question prompted by this discussion: why is there a Saxony and a Saxony-Anhalt?
It's about the difference between 1) Saxony as a cultural geographic term, which included much of what is now Thuringia, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, and maybe Lower Saxony, too, and 2) different specific historic political entities within that area, like the old Kingdom of Saxony, the Prussian Province of Saxony (I'd have to look up what that was before it became a Prussian Province), the Principality, later Duchy, of Anhalt, and various thingies that usually, but not always, had "Saxony" in their name and were later merged into the State of Thuringia. Today's "Saxony" is the former Kingdom of Saxony, while today's "Saxony-Anhalt" was a merger of what used to be the Prussian Province of Saxony and what used to be the Duchy of Anhalt.
And the region of Saxony has only a dynastic connection to the original Saxony, which was roughly Lower Saxony, Westphalia, Holstein and northwestern Saxony-Anhalt, and from where the Saxons came who settled southern England, founding the kingdoms of Wessex, Sussex and Essex, in whose names -sex is from Old English Seaxe. The two regions speak wholly different dialects. It is just that the title "Duke of Saxony" was inherited by a noble house that held a fief in what is now called Saxony. There are more such examples. The petty state of Liechtenstein has its name from the dynasty, who got their name from their original seat, a castle in Austria, and the district and former principality of Lippe (where I was born and grew up, BTW) is not on the Lippe river, but the princes of Lippe had their original seat on that river.

But the election result in Saxony-Anhalt (which is not in yet, but the prognoses are stabilizing) is of course deeply worrying, but it now seems as if the worst case, a majority for the far-right AfD in the state legislature, has not happened. But nevertheless, that party is a threat to democracy, and therefore has to be combated with all democratically legitimate means! There is already a discussion of banning it, but the hurdles for such a ban are (justly) very high, and a ban would make those who claim that Germany was "not really a democracy" where "the biggest opposition party is persecuted" feel vindicated. Also, there are other far-right parties such as the former NPD (who now call themselves Die Heimat), who currently do not play any significant role but would be ready to fill the gap. You may want to look at the Bremen state election of 2023 where the AfD was disqualified for formal reasons - and another far-right party promptly claimed their votes.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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Update: the AfD has missed the majority, but the BSW has announced their support for an AfD governor. Good grief.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2026 4:30 am Update: the AfD has missed the majority, but the BSW has announced their support for an AfD governor. Good grief.
There's a large part of me that only sees this going the way it went in the Netherlands when they tried for a PVV-led government. (Read: badly, as the government formation took a very long time and it still collapsed in less than two years out of the four-year term of parliament.)
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Re: German Politics Thread

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lëtzeshark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2026 2:52 pm
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2026 4:30 am Update: the AfD has missed the majority, but the BSW has announced their support for an AfD governor. Good grief.
There's a large part of me that only sees this going the way it went in the Netherlands when they tried for a PVV-led government. (Read: badly, as the government formation took a very long time and it still collapsed in less than two years out of the four-year term of parliament.)
Yes, I expect it to fail quickly, too.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2026 3:20 pmYes, I expect it to fail quickly, too.
We can only hope so. Nonetheless it often feels like far right politics is an addiction that leads people to compulsive self-destruction (to say nothing of its impact on everyone else).
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Re: German Politics Thread

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I can only say that it's awful, if not unexpected (you could sort of see that coming eventually...)
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Re: German Politics Thread

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Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 1:50 am I can only say that it's awful, if not unexpected (you could sort of see that coming eventually...)
Yes, it is awful, and I have to say that the progressives communicate suboptimally: they warn of the dire consequences of business as usual, but do not present an attractive alternative future. Writers who concern themselves with the current issues such as climate change or techbro capitalism usually write dystopias, to the effect that many people believe that the future will be worse than the present, from whence it is only a small step to believing that the past was better. And it is this better past that the far right promise to bring back, hence people vote for them.
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Re: German Politics Thread

Post by Ares Land »

I do agree that evidently progressives don't communicate efficiently.
Conservatives probably have some soul-searching to do as well -- it looks like a number of AfD voters are former CDU voters, so conservative voters, so we have to figure out why they turn to more anti-social forms of conservativism. Personally, I find Merz depressing, but I don't know how Germans feel about him. More generally, I think the European conservative platform of 'work a shit job till you drop dead' isn't winning heart and minds.


There's no shortage here of pundits commenting, but I find most analyses unconvincing. They tend to zero in on the fact that Saxony-Anhalt is in the East. Not that there isn't some GDR or reunification long-lasting fallout at play here, but we're dealing with a global phenomenon here. Leaving the question of Ulrich Siegmund's motorcycle aside, the AFD isn't very different from what we have here.

For some reason the AFD is supposed to be way worse than the RN. That's completely delusional in my view. Part of this is the RN doing damage control, of course, because the AFD's victory doesn't help them.

Why doesn't it help? Well, there's a deep emotional response to the far-right winning in Germany. This is annoying in multiple respects: nobody cared about the far-right in Austria or Italy, more generally the Germanophobia is delusional (Is a French nazi going to be nicer?) and, you know, do we need more xenophobia in the world right now?
On the other hand, maybe this could be a wake-up call and maybe people need to see what happens spelled out in the most obvious way possible.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 3:18 am
Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 1:50 am I can only say that it's awful, if not unexpected (you could sort of see that coming eventually...)
Yes, it is awful, and I have to say that the progressives communicate suboptimally: they warn of the dire consequences of business as usual, but do not present an attractive alternative future. Writers who concern themselves with the current issues such as climate change or techbro capitalism usually write dystopias, to the effect that many people believe that the future will be worse than the present, from whence it is only a small step to believing that the past was better. And it is this better past that the far right promise to bring back, hence people vote for them.
Thoughts:
(1) Lecturing about the dangers of climate change in the *future* is going to fall flat to somebody who is struggling *now*.
(2) Leftists may find it gauche when Trump slathers his name on everything, but it has the effect that people credit Trump for *doing* things. If you don't put your name on a thing, it makes it feel like it just *happened* by itself, instead of being *done* by somebody.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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jcb wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 7:39 pm (1) Lecturing about the dangers of climate change in the *future* is going to fall flat to somebody who is struggling *now*.
When are we allowed to talk about destroying the ecosphere?

A lot of changes are needed to our lifestyle... when were you planning to do that?

I guess no changes need to be made if we just let civilization burn up.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 9:32 pm
jcb wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 7:39 pm (1) Lecturing about the dangers of climate change in the *future* is going to fall flat to somebody who is struggling *now*.
When are we allowed to talk about destroying the ecosphere?

A lot of changes are needed to our lifestyle... when were you planning to do that?

I guess no changes need to be made if we just let civilization burn up.
To jcb environmentalism is a liberal deviation.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 9:32 pm
jcb wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 7:39 pm (1) Lecturing about the dangers of climate change in the *future* is going to fall flat to somebody who is struggling *now*.
When are we allowed to talk about destroying the ecosphere?

A lot of changes are needed to our lifestyle... when were you planning to do that?

I guess no changes need to be made if we just let civilization burn up.
Don't present it to people as a situation where you, the average individual person, need to tighten your belt. It gives off the same energy as lecturing millenials about needing to stop spending all their money on avocado toast.
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Re: German Politics Thread

Post by Travis B. »

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 10:53 pm
zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 9:32 pm
jcb wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 7:39 pm (1) Lecturing about the dangers of climate change in the *future* is going to fall flat to somebody who is struggling *now*.
When are we allowed to talk about destroying the ecosphere?

A lot of changes are needed to our lifestyle... when were you planning to do that?

I guess no changes need to be made if we just let civilization burn up.
Don't present it to people as a situation where you, the average individual person, need to tighten your belt. It gives off the same energy as lecturing millenials about needing to stop spending all their money on avocado toast.
So we're not allowed to talk about lifestyle changes that may reduce the damage done to the environment then?
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Re: German Politics Thread

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I guess we just have to accept things such as driving massive internal-combustion-engine SUV's on hour-long (each way) commutes each day then, lest we offend someone with the notion that they may have some part in what is being done to the environment.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 11:09 pm I guess we just have to accept things such as driving massive internal-combustion-engine SUV's on hour-long (each way) commutes each day then, lest we offend someone with the notion that they may have some part in what is being done to the environment.
I think this scenario is just as silly as you do, and I refuse to participate in it. (I live close to where I work, and don't drive an SUV.) But I also know that this issue doesn't motivate many people, because they have much more pressing issues to worry about, so I think it's best to focus on issues that do motivate many people. I'm not asking for leftists to not act on it when they win, but to just do better PR with it.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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jcb wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 11:34 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2026 11:09 pm I guess we just have to accept things such as driving massive internal-combustion-engine SUV's on hour-long (each way) commutes each day then, lest we offend someone with the notion that they may have some part in what is being done to the environment.
I think this scenario is just as silly as you do, and I refuse to participate in it. (I live close to where I work, and don't drive an SUV.) But I also know that this issue doesn't motivate many people, because they have much more pressing issues to worry about, so I think it's best to focus on issues that do motivate many people. I'm not asking for leftists to not act on it when they win, but to just do better PR with it.
Maybe parties shouldn't treat the voters as big fat babies who must be bribed with candy before they stop shitting in their diapers. When some politicians are peddling comforting or provocative lies, the answer is not to lie along with them.

This thread is about Europe, not the US. Europe experienced its hottest summer yet, with at least 36,000 excess deaths due to heat. Wildfires burned 650,000 hectares-- less than last year, but twice the average of the last two decades. 90% of US homes have A/C; only 20% in Europe. This is a pressing concern, and it only gets worse if parties take your immoral and terrible advice and forget about the ongoing catastrophe.

That doesn't mean that climate change is the only thing parties should talk about. WeepingElf is right that leftists need to provide a positive vision too.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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zompist wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2026 2:12 am That doesn't mean that climate change is the only thing parties should talk about. WeepingElf is right that leftists need to provide a positive vision too.
Thank you, zompist. And it is precisely such a positive vision which I have decided to dedicate my creative skills to. The genre even has a name: solarpunk. (I am not very happy with that name because I associate punk with pessimism and cynicism, and a music genre and subculture I am not at all into, but it is the usual term; and in the science fiction scene, -punk is now merely a suffix added to the name of a technology to denote a genre prominently featuring that technology, as in cyberpunk or steampunk.)
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Re: German Politics Thread

Post by Ares Land »

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2026 2:12 am This thread is about Europe, not the US. Europe experienced its hottest summer yet, with at least 36,000 excess deaths due to heat. Wildfires burned 650,000 hectares-- less than last year, but twice the average of the last two decades. 90% of US homes have A/C; only 20% in Europe. This is a pressing concern, and it only gets worse if parties take your immoral and terrible advice and forget about the ongoing catastrophe.
I can confirm that. Where I live, we're barely leaving a four-months 40°C heatwave, with three huge wildfires close to where I live.
Climate change really is a current threat, not a far future one.
Relevant to the AFD's success: prolonged heat waves in the Middle East led to food shortages which led to riots, which to the Arab Spring and general instability, hence refugees in Europe.
Although the migrant crisis wouldn't have been a crisis if Europeans weren't so goddamned selfish as to actually prefer putting Nazis in power to helping people less fortunate than they are.

There's a grain of truth in what jcb is saying: there's a lot of focus on individual lifestyle changes. But there's not much you can do individually and the less well-off you are, the less options you have. If you gotta drive to work, you gotta drive to work; if the train is too expensive, it's too expensive; if the food and clothes you buy are imported, well, you get the idea.
You have options, individual, you can work remotely or move closer to public transportation or be careful about what you buy, but these options are available for the (upper) middle class and higher.

Now, the thing to keep in mind: it's mostly centrists (and conservatives) that tend to focus on individual action. There can be a level of confusion in the US where leftists and centrists have to share a party, not so in Europe.
I have a lot to complain about leftists in Europe, but on that particular point their attitudes are sound.
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Re: German Politics Thread

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zompist wrote:That doesn't mean that climate change is the only thing parties should talk about. WeepingElf is right that leftists need to provide a positive vision too.
Yes, this is basically what I'm saying.
Ares Land wrote:There's a grain of truth in what jcb is saying: there's a lot of focus on individual lifestyle changes. But there's not much you can do individually and the less well-off you are, the less options you have. If you gotta drive to work, you gotta drive to work; if the train is too expensive, it's too expensive; if the food and clothes you buy are imported, well, you get the idea.
You have options, individual, you can work remotely or move closer to public transportation or be careful about what you buy, but these options are available for the (upper) middle class and higher.
This too. Also, for most Americans the options for using public transit are very slim.
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Re: German Politics Thread

Post by Richard W »

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2026 3:04 am Where I live, we're barely leaving a four-months 40°C heatwave, with three huge wildfires close to where I live.
England has had it better. I think it didn't reach 40°C. Viewed from a distance, lawns are turning or have turned green, and my drought-ravaged hydrangeas are putting forth new shoots. Our depleted aquifers may now be refilling, though they are unlikely to be ready for next year's drought and record heatwave.
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